Mike Smith - Developing Young Athletes Across Different Cultures

In this conversation, Mike Smith shares his journey from a young sports enthusiast in England to a college soccer player at Harvard and later a coach in the U.S. He reflects on the emotional impact of the 1966 World Cup, his experiences in organized football, and the vibrant community of the Portuguese league in Massachusetts. Mike discusses the evolution of youth soccer in America and his passion for coaching, emphasizing the importance of patience and understanding in developing young players. In this conversation, Mike Smith shares his journey through the world of youth sports coaching, emphasizing the importance of patience and inclusivity in development. He discusses his transition to Special Olympics, where he focused on creating programs that integrate individuals with and without disabilities. Mike reflects on his leadership roles in various organizations, including his time in Europe and his current work with Coerver Coaching, which promotes a unique methodology centered on ball mastery. The conversation also touches on the need for innovation in youth sports and the importance of creating a positive environment for young athletes. In this conversation, Alf Gracombe and Mike Smith delve into the intricacies of coaching in youth sports, emphasizing the importance of a supportive coaching philosophy, the role of technology, and the significance of personal expression in sports. They discuss the challenges faced by coaches, the need for effective communication, and the impact of technology on youth sports. Mike shares insights on how new coaches can start their journey and recommends valuable resources for further learning.

Takeaways

• Mike's passion for sports began at a very young age.
• The 1966 World Cup had a profound impact on his love for football.
• College soccer in the U.S. was a different experience compared to England.
• The Portuguese league in Massachusetts provided a strong community connection.
• Coaching youth soccer was a natural progression for Mike.
• Patience is crucial when coaching young players.
• The importance of creating a fun environment for kids in sports.
• Mike's coaching philosophy emphasizes understanding each child's needs.
• The growth of soccer in the U.S. has been influenced by immigrant communities. Development is a non-linear process, especially for young athletes.
• Patience is crucial in coaching, particularly with younger players.
• Grassroots football laid the foundation for today's club systems.
• Inclusivity in sports programs can change lives.
• Proper coaching is essential for individuals with disabilities.
• Collaboration with other organizations enhances sports programs.
• Volunteerism plays a significant role in the success of sports initiatives.
• Cultural differences influence coaching methodologies around the world.
• The Coerver methodology emphasizes ball mastery and skill development.
• Creating a positive environment is key to retaining young athletes. Coaching should focus on the development of players, not just winning.
• The role of a coach is to provide positive, useful feedback.
• Technology can enhance coaching but must be used thoughtfully.
• Personal expression in sports is crucial for youth development.
• Coaches should prioritize creating a supportive environment for players.
• Understanding the unique pressures of youth sports is essential for coaches.
• Feedback should be specific to individual players, not just general team performance.
• Simplicity in coaching methods is key for new coaches.
• Practice is often more beneficial for learning than game day.
• Resources and continuous learning are vital for effective coaching.

For more information about CoachCraft, visit https://coachcraft.info.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:45 Mike's Early Sports Journey
• 6:06 Transition to Organized Football
• 10:49 College Soccer Experience at Harvard
• 16:16 Playing in the Portuguese League
• 21:58 Coaching Journey Begins
• 27:03 Developing Coaching Skills and Patience
• 28:52 The Non-Linear Journey of Development
• 30:08 Transitioning to Special Olympics
• 32:08 Building Inclusive Sports Programs
• 35:42 Leadership in Special Olympics
• 37:08 Expanding Horizons: From Washington to Europe
• 40:52 The Shift to Barcelona and Coerver Coaching
• 44:30 The Coerver Methodology: A New Approach to Football
• 51:25 Integrating Play and Practice in Youth Development
• 57:56 Innovating Youth Sports: Big Idea Sports
• 59:20 Coaching Philosophy and Professional Influence
• 1:01:45 The Role of Coaches in Youth Sports
• 1:05:11 Technology in Youth Sports
• 1:08:00 Personal Expression in Sport
• 1:15:14 Advice for New Coaches
• 1:19:48 Recommended Resources for Coaches

Transcript

Mike Smith (00:00.685)
Okay.

Alf Gracombe (00:01.6)
Okay, good. Hey, Mike Smith. Welcome to the Coach Craft podcast. Great to have you here.

Mike Smith (00:07.007)
It's pleasure to be here, Alf Thanks very much for the invite.

Alf Gracombe (00:11.168)
All right, good. Well, let's get started. You're over there in Barcelona. I'm here in Boston. So I appreciate you doing this here at, I think, mid afternoon Barcelona time, morning here in Boston. So good. So Mike, I'd like to start these conversations to learn a little bit about you as a person and the beginning stage of your journey in the world of football, the world of sports. So take us back, if you can, to...

Mike Smith (00:16.194)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (00:39.282)
early days when you first started playing as a boy.

Mike Smith (00:43.778)
Yeah, well it goes a long way back. I was sports mad I think from the age of, I don't know, the age of three. so I was born in England but we moved to the States for three years. And so I would say that's my first sports experience was in the States. Baseball was big, back of our house, big.

baseball diamond, used to go just the kids would walk down and pick up games or whatever. And I was four, so I wasn't gonna let size or age put me off. remember with my mitt was as big as my, half the size of my body kind of thing. But it was that informal introduction to sport. Sport was big in the US, obviously kids played, but it was all informal. But I took to it very fast.

and just loved to play, loved the environment, loved everything about it. so then we, yeah, we move up to England. So we came back there just in time for 1966, which was... A lot of people asked that, yeah. England won a World Cup? Are you sure about this? Is they Googling? No, so we're there in 1966.

Alf Gracombe (01:49.184)
What happened in 1966?

Alf Gracombe (01:58.955)
It did happen.

Mike Smith (02:02.222)
living in Dorchester on the south coast of England. And I think that was my first experience of the scale and the scope and the depth and the emotion of football. I think it was still in black and white in those days, but it was something special and the buildup to the final. And as a kid, you really...

It was an emotional thing. And of course it's your country, you know, being representative. But even then it was, you know, all the players, they had iconic players. So you learned about iconic players, you know, like Bobby Moore and the Charlton brothers and Jeff Hurst. And then in Germany they had Franz Beckenbauer.

Alf Gracombe (02:50.368)
Right.

Mike Smith (02:51.07)
the Kaiser. mean it doesn't get bigger than that, you you're playing against the Kaiser.

Alf Gracombe (02:56.897)
Yeah, and this is only a little bit more than 20 years beyond past World War II. And... Sure.

Mike Smith (03:04.256)
Yes, yes, yes. So England, Germany had its connotations and the Kaiser kind of. And so, yeah, it was it was just one of those games that England won on, you know, playing really well and a couple of fortunate moments where.

Alf Gracombe (03:22.452)
That was...

Mike Smith (03:24.138)
One particular where, you know, still being debated, did the ball go over the line as it hit the bar and came down? We didn't have VAR. Thank God we had football without VAR. And so there you go. England won 4-2. It's interesting, I was saying the other day, the crossbar, the famous crossbar of 1966, which was essentially the winning goal, is now on display in Museum of Football or whatever.

Alf Gracombe (03:51.883)
in the British Museum or something. Right next to the Elgin Marbles, right?

Mike Smith (03:52.972)
Yes, so this is as important as the mummies from Egypt. But I think it was just that impact. to this day, that's how kids pick up the start of their real love of the game. If you're a sporting type, if it's somehow in your body and mind to be sporting, those kind of events.

Alf Gracombe (04:17.268)
Yeah. And do you remember you relatively young boy in 1966, but your memories are fairly vivid, it sounds like, of living through that time.

Mike Smith (04:27.69)
yeah, it was. And it's interesting in those days, there wasn't in England, there wasn't a lot of club sport for under 12s. So we didn't have a club team. You played a little bit in the school, maybe, but you had to go and find it. You know, so that's what we did. We went out and found the game, you know, down in the local park or stealing off to another town with five boys because we'd been invited to a game and.

your parents didn't know about it, know, this kind of thing. But it was unorganized. Yeah, it was that pursuing the game, I think, because it just is something I just love to do, you know, and I think.

Alf Gracombe (04:59.957)
And so there was no organized, huh.

Alf Gracombe (05:10.464)
What was your earliest, at a certain point you must have played some organized football. Do you remember when that was and what that looked like?

Mike Smith (05:15.98)
Yeah, when did you get organised? I think that was, we moved from the South Coast up to the Midlands to Leicester, Leicester City. And that was sort of junior high. So 12, 13, know, 13 years old. And they had a school team, a pretty good school team. And that's when it started, you know, where you actually have a coach, go on a team, play other schools in a league, trying to qualify for the championship. so it started there.

Alf Gracombe (05:30.912)
Okay.

Mike Smith (05:45.39)
And then after that, you join a club team when you're 13, 14. I was playing on an adult team when I was 16. And so I just kind of went with it. along the way, know, played, soccer was kind of my game, but I played rugby, cricket, hockey, basically anything with a ball, golf. was just, somehow that environment appealed to me and fed something. So, yeah.

Alf Gracombe (06:04.98)
Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (06:13.376)
So, you know, this is, I guess we're probably around, you know, 1970 now, let's say, just to put it in an era. It's after the World Cup victory by England. The country, no doubt, has its shoulders back and chest out in terms of its football identity.

Mike Smith (06:30.838)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (06:35.646)
But do you remember as you joined these school teams, these organized teams, what the, do you have any recollection of what the training was like, what the coaching was like, what kind of instruction you were getting?

Mike Smith (06:39.146)
and

Mike Smith (06:45.878)
It was a different era. So I'd say there wasn't much, to be honest, there wasn't much coaching. There was a coach, I think his more around physical. We did a lot of running, running and then just then playing. think the coach was always more picking the team who plays where, organized it. Yes. And I think we talked a bit about, you know, about formations and things like that. But I think there was very little technical training.

Alf Gracombe (07:01.216)
Yeah, just put them in a 442 and just...

Mike Smith (07:13.016)
You know, throughout, you know, when I was growing up, we didn't have technical coaches. We didn't have people work on our skills. But we played a lot. We played a lot of games when I was 56 and I'm playing three games a week, competitive, you know. Yeah. And I think that that is what, that's how I developed anyway. but, but I did, I didn't, I would say I didn't have a lot of influence from a coach.

But I think that catches up with you at some point. If you go up the levels, you know, from high school to college team or to a professional team or semi-pro team professional, then you have a lot of intuitive way to play, but you don't necessarily have that grounding in the core skills that you need to play at the highest level.

So I think it did catch, it caught up, but it didn't really stop my love of the game, you know, from when I was a kid.

Alf Gracombe (08:13.225)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (08:17.63)
And then you must have realized or somebody must have realized that you were a pretty good player and because you did then come to the U.S. for college and you played in college as well. So I'd to kind of hear how that story developed and how you sought out that opportunity or how it came to you and then what you did here in the U.S. back back in the U.S. for a second time.

Mike Smith (08:26.285)
Yes.

Mike Smith (08:39.182)
Yeah, to go from England then to the US.

So, but I had a good football, soccer, CV, if you like. I think it was handwritten, actually. And so we had just a personal contact who knew some people around Massachusetts and they knew people at Harvard. And I was very lucky there that there was an Irish man, Seamus Mallin. Seamus went on to be a TV commentator in the early days of soccer in the US, in the professional.

game. Brilliant guy. I think it was just at the time they were just, besides the academic, I was okay. They were looking to improve their team and they get a CV from England and it looked very good and I tried out for the national schools team and all this kind of stuff. So that got me to Harvard, which was a great experience. It's very different.

you know, on a college, on a college team, which is a very American thing, you know.

Alf Gracombe (09:46.177)
So, sorry, a little bit of a side note because I never really watched American college soccer, but last night was the men's division one final. And, it's kind of an interesting story. The university of Vermont, catamounts who have never won a national title. They were unranked, unseated coming into the tournament and they found themselves in the final, against Marshall school in West Virginia. Apparently a school.

their entire team is made up of international students and they've got a pretty good program, but nobody was expecting Vermont. And I just, it's fresh in the mind is why I'm bringing it up, but also it went to extra time. Vermont scored a late goal in regulation and they have the golden goal rule in college soccer.

Mike Smith (10:19.074)
Yeah. Yes.

Alf Gracombe (10:37.644)
And it's been a while since I've seen a Golden Goal competition and it was actually really quite exciting and Vermont scored again and ended up winning the title. So the men's college soccer title is here in New England once again. But you're.

Mike Smith (10:53.92)
It's a big deal. remember college sport is a big deal in the US. In England it's not with the universities, particularly unless the boat race, Oxford against Cambridge, you that's the one thing. But in general, it's not. And that's that you get involved in that and it's a different thing. So you're kind of for the first time representing something quite.

Alf Gracombe (10:59.166)
yeah. Right.

Mike Smith (11:14.54)
tangible, this place, this place where you're at school, the people you know, the people come to see the game, didn't really have that experience so much in England. And that was, I think that was the start of when you identify with a team, is that step.

and that deepens your responsibility, but also I think your game gets richer because you have to put in that extra piece every time you get on the field.

Alf Gracombe (11:44.176)
So a little bit about your team at Harvard then. Who were the other players on the team? Are there a lot of internationals? Were there a lot of Americans? A mix?

Mike Smith (11:54.22)
Yeah, a mix. think the first time that when I arrived as freshmen was their effort to bring in more international players. And I think there was one before. our freshman year, there were five international players as freshmen playing on the first team, which was unheard of. Yeah. And we had a really good season. So.

they built on that. But I think that was when I think maybe the Harvard outlook of making teams more important, not just as an adjunct to academics, sort of just started to take over and the international part came to pass. So yes, it was a mix, but a good mix. There's some good American players from New Jersey, Midwest, Texas, whatever, we're some good players.

Alf Gracombe (12:39.071)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (12:46.016)
Yeah, well the game was certainly growing, you know, at that time. This would have been, what, early 80s? Okay, late 70s, early 80s.

Mike Smith (12:53.462)
Yeah, was late 70s and then into 81. And yeah, and then, then, yeah, then we finished, we had a pretty good year last year and then you move into the big world.

Alf Gracombe (13:04.852)
Yeah, well you and know Pele have something in common. were here playing in North America at the same time I think when he was at the Cosmos and

Mike Smith (13:10.254)
Yeah, I remember the cosmos. Yeah, we went down to New York a couple of times and that was something. That was something. the pro game was in its infancy there, you know.

Alf Gracombe (13:21.246)
Yeah. And so what was the quality? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was, it was the first time I think it had really, was, it was kind of getting a mass market audience. was the, the glamour of the cosmos, of course. But then, you know, I, I grew up outside of Washington, DC. We had the, diplomats playing in the North American soccer league. And, you know, I, I got to see both Pele and Johan Cruyff play here in the U S which,

Mike Smith (13:33.548)
Yes, it was.

Mike Smith (13:39.532)
Yeah, that's right.

Alf Gracombe (13:48.545)
was strange, this was 40 plus years ago now. So it's in some ways hard to imagine that, but it was happening for sure. So what was the quali... sorry.

Mike Smith (13:53.25)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (13:59.202)
But soccer had been in the US though for quite a while because of the ethnic influence from the Italian leagues, Portuguese leagues. So, as you know, in Massachusetts, while I was in university, I was playing with a Portuguese team down in Fall River. That's an amazing experience. I think it still remains one of the best soccer, football playing experiences I've had is playing in those kind of leagues.

and you get a whole other different side of America.

Alf Gracombe (14:32.959)
Yeah. And you're right. You're right. That was already here. And I don't need to remind you of the 1950 World Cup when the U S you know, beat England. and, but that team was, you know, there weren't a lot of, I don't think a lot of American born or, there were a lot of second generation, first generation immigrants that made up that team. but you know, we didn't really hear about that. I mean, I wasn't alive in 1950, but that was never even really mentioned as part of our.

Mike Smith (14:41.55)
Actually, I don't know how to do that.

Mike Smith (14:50.702)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (15:01.34)
football heritage. I learned about it, you know, much later. It's like, we were in a semi-final of a World Cup in 1950. But you're right, it was here. It didn't just...

Mike Smith (15:09.89)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It didn't just sort of, wasn't invented by sort of some corporate America thing to invent. So, but no, the experience that I had in the Portuguese league, yeah, it taught me a lot. was very special.

Alf Gracombe (15:25.844)
And this was during Wigard College or after you were here at Harvard.

Mike Smith (15:29.57)
Yeah, just college was in the fall. So, you know, we played in spring, but you could play with other teams in the spring. So I played in the spring with the team. And then when I left college, did a little bit of trying to go on the pro side in the indoor league with Colorado, but it didn't last very long. So I was grounded in the Portuguese for about 12 years in that league.

amazing people and all the, know, the most of them were local players working in local textile factories. And, but it, taught me, I think a lot about the community that surrounds a club like that and how they created a team, the rivalries with all the other, you know, all the other towns in, the South of Massachusetts and

But that again, that reminded me a bit of England. That is the depth of football. It's in their blood. yeah, that was, so all those experiences were in the US, you know, essentially. But...

Alf Gracombe (16:37.567)
Yeah. Well, so what maybe a little bit more color on the Portuguese league here in Massachusetts, because I don't know much about it. What I do know is in large part been informed by conversations with you. What was it like? got game days. What was the vibe? What was the scene out of the field?

Mike Smith (16:55.502)
Yeah, it's pretty vivid. I can feel it, you know. So the league was very good. Well organized is called the Luso American Soccer Association, LASA. It was in Fall River, Rhode Island and those places and 100 % Portuguese. Everybody around is all Portuguese community clubs. And so.

So the standard of football was good, semi-pro level. You get quite a few players coming through and then going on to the growing American league. So these were kind of programs as well. But no, was more the, you got the sense of this community and you're an important part of the community.

Alf Gracombe (17:32.116)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (17:42.394)
And so the fans, you know, the fans will come out, it's on Sundays, our games are on Sundays after church. So I the fans will come in all their suits and everything and the traditional and, you know, wear and they're on the sidelines swearing at the referee and everything like this.

But then, it's the feeling when you play, but then you go back to the clubhouse. The clubhouse is the social center and the fans are back there and you have your meal, you know, the long table and whatever, and there's people everywhere. you know, whether you won or lost, it didn't, there's either big commiseration or, you know, or buying you an extra beer or something like that. But it meant a lot. You could feel that it meant a lot to the people in those communities.

was one step above the college thing. It was deeper.

Alf Gracombe (18:34.784)
And how did you get linked up with this league? You're an Englishman, so were there lot of other non-Portuguese folks playing in this league?

Mike Smith (18:40.631)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (18:45.784)
There was some. Remember from the Irish community, they would come down and play. Some big Irish boys, I remember them. But no, there was a mix. There was a mix, predominantly the Portuguese, but then they were open to finding good players. And I think the assistant coach at Harvard is from that area.

And so he was the one that there were a couple of us playing on our college team that he would take down. We went down, you know, narrow and 15 minutes to practice every day and an hour and 15 minutes back. was a big commitment. But but once you got there, that was the introduction. You feel it. You feel a sense of love from those people.

Alf Gracombe (19:13.821)
Okay.

Alf Gracombe (19:26.208)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (19:35.694)
And I know he's a pretty good player, you know, so I did well for the team and that's a special place to be in.

Alf Gracombe (19:46.014)
You know, I've gotten to know you a little bit over the last couple years, but I've never asked you what position did you play. I'm guessing you were a midfielder, but is my intuition right? Okay.

Mike Smith (19:52.992)
Yeah, I was in midfield there both in growing up more or less. When I got to a men's team, I would take whatever position they give me, which then to be left back, you know, that's okay. You know, did a lot of runs up there. I was before my time doing a lot of runs up the wing. But no, so in colleges is midfield for a while.

And then as you get a little bit older, you steadily go back, you know, to, you know, centre back. And then I was a sweeper for the last six, seven years. I was the Kaiser, you know, my Kaiser days from Beckenvale. so it was, was, then other people were doing the running up and down, up and down. And use your experience just to step in at the right moment and play the ball. Yes. Yeah. But I enjoyed every bit of it. Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (20:32.042)
You

Alf Gracombe (20:38.655)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a, that's right. A familiar trajectory for, for aging footballers for sure. Well, so you were, you're in this very organized, you know, collegiate sports environment, but also then this more community oriented football. How would you compare the two? I'm curious actually just like about the quality between the two and, and yeah.

Mike Smith (20:55.563)
Yeah.

Big contrast. the difference in quality. Hard to say. would say the Portuguese league, the quality of the overall game is higher because the players have more game experience.

They have more tactical experience. They have more nous if you like So it's as much figuring out the other team and the tactics whatever the college game was very What was skillful to but very physical? Fast and physical I think I would characterize it as

Alf Gracombe (21:19.764)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (21:29.076)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (21:34.198)
Portuguese are naturally skillful people, you know, and they come from a skillful game, the Portuguese game, Benfica and those kind of clubs, you know. So I think that was the difference, but both very competitive. But I think the skill level and the speed was faster in the Portuguese league. And there seemed to be more on the line when you walked out on the field. Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (21:42.656)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (22:05.268)
You know, there's a, not from Massachusetts, but I grew up in the DC area, but I've been in Boston now for about 20 years.

And I've seen the remnants, or not, I want to say remnants, because it's still present very much, but of the Portuguese influence in, around this area. Like very few people know, there's a statue at Foxborough of Eusebio, the great Portuguese player.

Mike Smith (22:32.191)
you save you of course, yeah, yeah.

Alf Gracombe (22:35.443)
My son plays club football and we were out at a game in the more western part of the state in Springfield and

His game was in this stadium. wasn't a new stadium, but, and then there was this clubhouse. It was a Portuguese club. And I remember after the game going in, there was a snack bar and, kind of this open area with tables. And I was like, yeah, this is, you know, and it's clearly been something that had been there for a while, but I think that's another example of, of where that kind of community, you know, Portuguese football was present.

Mike Smith (23:03.374)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (23:10.034)
And then Brazil and Portugal played a friendly, maybe it was about 10 years ago or so at Foxboro. And I went and wow, what a scene that was. It's like the entire Portuguese and Brazilian communities came out for this game. Incredibly festive, fun evening, you know, at the USA football venue. They just completely took it over and it was, yeah.

Mike Smith (23:21.141)
Yeah

Mike Smith (23:26.8)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it doesn't change. It doesn't go away. That kind of that connection back to your your country of origin, you know, and that's the great thing about the game. Great thing about football.

Alf Gracombe (23:46.847)
Yeah, no, it was absolutely felt that, you know, just being there and yeah. So, okay. So just back to your story then you're, you're here in Massachusetts and you're playing in that league, but you're also transitioning a bit into a professional career in the game or in sport. So yeah, what else were you doing while you were here in Massachusetts?

Mike Smith (23:51.17)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (24:12.302)
Well, after college, you know, like I said, I tried a little bit with professional football, but it wasn't for me, particularly the indoor game. And so we're just sitting around with some of our friends and, know, you're running out of money and the rent has to be paid. So so we started a company called the Soccer Network to just bring our kind of love of the game and and and

minimal coaching knowledge, but definitely a love of the game and an ability in the game and created a company that would do camps and clinics and work with local clubs. And we just got going and we had enough, more or less enough work to pay the rent. And that's how we sort of transitioned into working with kids.

I was kind of my, you know, I'd done a little while I was in college at a summer camp and these things, but kind of taking a bit of responsibility of how are going to coach? What's our thing? What's our curriculum? What's, you know, what are we teaching? And that was really, really good. We got a really good response in Cambridge, you know, where the university was. So we had the Harvard fields to do camps and we developed a program there. And I think that's where I probably met

Alf Gracombe (25:28.094)
nice.

Mike Smith (25:32.962)
Dean Conway out in for Jamaica Plain. And I think we did a couple of things out there at a camp. And we just connected with the youth scene, the growing youth scene. This is early eighties outside of the ethnic population, ethnic population, the American Italians, the American Portuguese. So that's what we did.

Alf Gracombe (25:56.789)
Yeah, I mean, this was the era when youth soccer certainly was moving into the, you know, the wider suburban America. You know, I mean, I grew up in Northern Virginia. This was, you know, I started playing late seventies, early eighties, and it was everybody just signed their kid up for soccer. No one knew how to coach it because none of the parents were, you know,

Mike Smith (26:08.086)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (26:22.336)
played soccer growing up, but it was very much a moment. I think Massachusetts was one of the youth hotbeds of youth soccer in a similar way that the Washington, DC area was, and I think in retrospect, probably because of the immigrant populations that were there. And there was some knowledge of the game already.

Mike Smith (26:29.4)
Mm.

Mike Smith (26:41.324)
Yeah, so the game was booming. so we did that for a few years. And then, yes.

Alf Gracombe (26:50.656)
So this was the first time you're actually coaching kids on the field. that fair to say?

Mike Smith (26:54.144)
Yeah, yeah, yes. So I was working with a good friend of mine, Doug Tashin. So he had the the USSFA license. So he was the license coach and

I think for my part, just, I've always, I love working with kids and I love being around them. So at the camps we had a lot of fun. So our logo on the back of our shirts was a picture of a field, different position, was soccer is fun. And that was it, that captured, we tried to come up with the slogan, but I said that's what it is. that was our...

That was our kind of brand, if you like, to say, you know, we want kids to come, particularly young kids, and catch the bug of the game and love it.

Alf Gracombe (27:46.823)
And so how were you, this is the first time you're coaching, but what were you doing to sort of build your skill and knowledge as a coach? You know, how intentional were you about it? And did you at that time think, yeah, you know, I really enjoy this and this is where I want to build a career and in the game.

Mike Smith (28:08.366)
Yeah, I don't in terms of building a career, I don't think it was structured. I wanted to stay in the game. That's for sure. I was playing and I had time and I wanted that time to be something to do with with sport or kids or football. I think that was pretty strong. That's pretty clear. You know, that's what I wanted to do. So but but it wasn't something that just I don't think I had a plan.

Alf Gracombe (28:17.703)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (28:37.784)
You know, we took direction from, you know, the Federation and from, you know, kind of the structure around coaching, but it's very different in those days compared what it is today, you know. Plus we didn't have the internet. We just had the internet, only just.

and to just be able to go on YouTube and see all kinds of examples, drills, games, technique and everything like that. But I think it was more just coaching out of our own heart, if you like. And we felt that was enough. I think when we went out to coach some high school teams,

Alf Gracombe (29:12.192)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (29:21.718)
I think we could have done with a bit more structure. I'll admit it, I think you have to have some structure behind it. You can't just be an ex-player who loves the game and go out and sort of osmosis to the kids. Some kind of structure does help. So I think we built that very gradually over time.

Alf Gracombe (29:27.867)
Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (29:42.494)
Yeah. Were you aware at all of what was happening in Europe in terms of youth football development or were you pretty isolated in terms of

Mike Smith (29:50.728)
No, we were US focused. In those days, again, the connection is phone calls back home kind of thing. so things were more localized. But we did some work with the Massachusetts Youth Soccer Association and going to their convention and picking up things there.

I think I can remember one of those conventions. the one thing I remember is we were doing demonstration from soccer network about what we do and here's some activity and we're doing one V one. And so there was one young player who was demo doing a demo and I was out there being the defender. So, okay, we're going to teach the steps of one V one. And, and so this is a young player who just couldn't get it.

You know, they sort of I guess they picked a player, but we're trying to do the one we want to demonstrate, you know, you do and you go this way and then this way, you know, and then you've got to shift the weight and shift the weight of the defender. So we're trying to to do that. And the kid can do it. And, you know, he's kind of looking at their watch. And I just stuck with it. You know, I took the extra five minutes. OK, let's stop this. Let's do.

This is the motion, okay, just do that a few times. And then we built it up and built it up. And then finally, luckily, you know, they kind of drill down and do a step over and buy and shoot. And everybody was like really behind the player. And somebody came up to me afterwards and said, my God, you have patience, you know? And I said, yes, because that's what that player needed, you know?

And so it's very much learning about, you know, kids are different, every kid's different and just looking at what each kid needs and trying to find the time of the patience to help them in some way to grow.

Alf Gracombe (31:45.387)
Yeah. So, you know, I've coached a fair amount more recently. It's been with the U tens. don't know what age group this was. but you see a lot of kids at that age, you know, they haven't played a lot of soccer. Many of them at that point, some have, but, a lot haven't. And, without a doubt every season, there is at least one of those moments that I have on the field with a kid. And I, you I don't want to over.

you know, be over sentimental about it, but it really does. Those are the moments that for me remind me of why I enjoy, you know, coaching when you have that breakthrough with the kid, mentioned patience mean, you really, patience really does pay off, especially at that age. Again, I worked with a lot of you tens, but you'll see kids, you know, coming into a season and they're nowhere. And then when you get those little connections throughout the season where you see a little bit of skill development and then the.

Mike Smith (32:23.95)
Mm.

Mike Smith (32:27.747)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (32:43.502)
You

Alf Gracombe (32:45.043)
development is anything but linear and you see these spurts of development sometimes with these kids and then you see the joy and the satisfaction they have of developing their own skill set and without a doubt, yeah, you have those moments and the patience really does pay off particularly I think at those younger ages. So.

Mike Smith (32:56.172)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Mike Smith (33:03.98)
Yeah, yeah. And it's that diversity of young kids that we had coming through the program of all levels. And you met their parents and their parents don't care what level they want. They want you to help them develop. That's your job. You're a coach. That's what you do. So, but it has to be for everybody. I learned that early, I think.

Alf Gracombe (33:24.352)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And everything back then I'd say was, you know, we call it grassroots soccer now, but this was really before there was the club system like we have here in the US, right? These were not parents paying the equivalent of, you know, $3,500 a year for their kids to play. This was grassroots football here, right?

Mike Smith (33:35.246)
Hmm.

Mike Smith (33:42.648)
No.

Mike Smith (33:46.028)
Yes, very much. Yeah, that's why probably we didn't succeed as a business. You know, we did OK, but we didn't charge those kind of fees. So maybe we loved the game too much. don't know.

Alf Gracombe (33:55.657)
Yeah. Well, there probably wasn't the same kind of market for it like there is today.

Mike Smith (34:01.07)
No.

Alf Gracombe (34:04.592)
okay. So then you're here in Boston and maybe let's, let's fast forward because I you've got a very interesting, career in leadership in sports, that, that, did follow. And, know, I asked you the question where you thinking about building a career. And I realized in retrospect, probably a silly question, a guy in his twenties, who's really thinking about building a career at that age. It's only at this stage that we look back and connect to all the dots. yeah, talk a little bit about if you can, what came next for you and, and, and.

Mike Smith (34:27.692)
Yeah. Yes.

Alf Gracombe (34:34.818)
the next chapter in your life.

Mike Smith (34:36.896)
Yeah, so we're doing the soccer network. did a master's degree in business at Babson on the side and I graduated there. And then I'm looking for something a bit bigger, I think, an organization or something like that. so I got a parent of one of the kids that I was coaching, Tom Dorley, fantastic guy, professional guy, consultant in strategy.

that he was representing a project in Special Olympics in Washington DC run by Eunice Kennedy and Sarge Ryber. And so he said, they're looking for a football director, a soccer director, you know.

So it one of those things. I wasn't looking, but somebody's looking and they and somebody knows. So so he introduced me to the people at Special Olympics in D.C. And I went down there and I was so blown away by by the organization and the people and particularly Eunice Kennedy and her her strength and desire to bring sport to.

individuals with intellectual disability around the world. I mean, it's amazing vision. And so it didn't it was one of these things I just went down to have a look at. after 10 minutes with her and then with Sergeant Shriver, who started the Peace Corps, and he's just shown me the globe and the map and said, you know, you could change so many lives around there. And it's kind of interview you can't wait. You can't say no, you know, and

And they, anyway, so they liked my application and I ended up going down to Washington DC and moving on to the next thing with Special Olympics.

Alf Gracombe (36:25.152)
And so how old was that organization at that point?

Mike Smith (36:28.534)
It's been around for a while, since the 60s. 68, I think, was the first World Games in Chicago. I think, if I remember rightly. So it's been around a while. So was established and they were trying to go to the next level. And Eunice Kennedy was an enormous sports person. Sarge Friber was a global thinker. So it's an interesting...

combination of the two, but she wanted anybody had an intellectual disability to have proper coaching. She, that's so important, not just dress them up and take them out to a competition. Let's, let's make sure that they get the benefit of good coaching. So that, that was the change in the organization and they were hiring people in different sports to try and develop that, that sense of, of equality of opportunity from, from the coaching of, of.

Alf Gracombe (37:06.144)
And so what...

Mike Smith (37:28.437)
of sport.

Alf Gracombe (37:29.977)
What did your job look like day to day?

Mike Smith (37:33.358)
Every day was different. We sort of made it up as we went along because it was new. So I focused in the US for the start and visiting different states, seeing what they were doing.

There had been a part-time director before, Bernie Fagan, who passed away recently, a great friend. He was from Sunderland and played pro football out in Portland, Oregon, and he was the director. And so we kind of developed some ideas together. And part of it was just getting other organizations on board. I think Special Olympics was quite closed. It was people who went to institutions or in special classes.

being taught sport, but it was quite closed. And I think my contribution there was to go to the USYSA and say, we should be doing this together. Every youth sport, every youth football, soccer organization should have a special program to bring together kids with and without disability. That's the whole idea here.

Alf Gracombe (38:29.034)
Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (38:43.988)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (38:44.904)
And so we developed this program called Top Soccer, the outreach program for soccer called Top Soccer. And we went to Chicago, we brought all the different states in and we started to, how could we develop this? Because if a group of...

players with an intellectual disability train on their own, it's quite challenging for a coach to actually do much. You put another 10 kids without disability who can support and help and like sport, now you've got something going, you know, and that can have a lot of benefits on both sides. That was the concept.

It's now called Unified Sports in Special Olympics. It's bringing people together is the key thing. And it helps develop their abilities and their social side and their communication and everything like that. So that's what we did. last thing I'll say on that, I went online the other day. I hadn't even looked for years to some sort of top soccer, top soccer Texas, top soccer, and they have top soccer everywhere. And this is

Alf Gracombe (39:51.134)
It's still around. That's fantastic. Yeah.

Mike Smith (39:52.95)
It's around and it's grown and you have all the endorsements from parents, you know, what that's meant for their child. that, I think that's one of the most satisfying things I've ever done, you know, is to be able to do something and then 20, 20, 30 years later, look back and it's still there and it's having an impact.

Alf Gracombe (40:12.704)
So yeah, and you know, lot of, think how the world, you know, tunes into Special Olympics when they have the big events and, and, you know, but there's the whole, another, you know, tranche of activity that is happening on the developmental side. And you were very involved in that, it sounds like.

Mike Smith (40:21.292)
Yes.

Mike Smith (40:32.524)
Yeah, and it's the day-to-day stuff, you know, and I mean, you give something, I learned a lot through that, obviously through that. I stayed with the organization for 20 years, so I picked it up a lot. But largely from the athletes themselves, know, our competition's just the effort and the joy, the volunteers, it's a volunteer-driven organization, and that's an amazing part of the US, I found.

Alf Gracombe (40:54.816)
Hmm.

Mike Smith (40:59.426)
was this commitment to volunteerism, you know, and they ran all the events, it's all volunteer, all the coaching is volunteer. And then, you know, the interaction with parents because parents were very involved.

when you have a son or daughter with a disability, that doubles your involvement in many ways. So for them to have people helping them develop their child was enormously important. So there's those things, you get a lot back and that kind of feeds you, I think. And yeah, I think from a coaching perspective, we talked before about patience and so.

with a special needs program, you need particular patience. But you get a lot back if you allow that to happen and stay with it.

Alf Gracombe (41:47.124)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (41:52.117)
Yeah, well, this is an interesting, you know, I only sort of recently talked about, I think our last conversation, we touched on this a little bit. And I will certainly include some links to Top Soccer and then Special Olympics in the show notes. But you stayed with Special Olympics, but this is when you moved into an even bigger leadership role. And did you move back to Europe at this point as well?

Mike Smith (42:15.726)
Mmm.

I went by Toronto. So I finished in Washington, then we had the World Winter Games in Toronto. So I went up there for two and a half, three years to be a representative for the international side. And so I understood how Canadians are different to Americans. And that was really good, really interesting, know, seeing the difference, you know, not very far over the border. It felt more like Europe, you know, when you got there. Yes, yes, it did. Definitely did. And it was incredibly cold and never been as cold.

Alf Gracombe (42:40.467)
Is that right? Yeah.

Mike Smith (42:46.518)
my life in Toronto. But again, you know, it's a world games, fantastic experience. You got 60 countries coming in and it's all the winter sports. It was great experience. And then that finished. And then I moved to Brussels to become the CEO of the European.

Alf Gracombe (42:46.624)
You

famous for its cold.

Mike Smith (43:06.762)
network, the European organization. was Europe and Eurasia, Russia, former Soviet Union. So was pretty big Europe in those days. yeah, so we developed the different programs around Europe. That was kind of next step, which is a bit more, as you say, leadership oriented rather than, you know, just grassroots sport. So yeah, but that again was a really interesting experience of that.

Alf Gracombe (43:13.952)
Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (43:35.44)
And I mean, you were a completely different role, of course, than when you started here in the U S with Special Olympics. But, you know, you mentioned the volunteerism and that dimension to it here in the U S it just quickly. I'm curious. Is there a point of contrast there with, what you experienced in Europe and admittedly, maybe you weren't on the ground as much kind of seeing it up close, but.

Mike Smith (43:58.188)
Yeah, I think it varied. I mean, which country, but there's a, Europe, there's plenty of social capital, if you like, of volunteerism. But there were a of professionals who, coaches who worked in that field. So they're working in a center or something like that. They tend to come more, the government puts more money into this more supportive, particularly like the Nordic countries or Germany. And, but still, still lot of volunteers.

in in once you get the further you go east it varies tends to be more institutional so we spent several trips going around russia which is fascinating we were in that whole region but there it's very much institutionalized but sport is such a big thing of from the particularly from the communist you know ideology side sports very important

So everybody does sport. And it's about fitness and your mind and your body and it doesn't matter who you are, that sport's important. So you see very different kind of nuances of how they approached it. But again, I think that what drives it was...

was, let's say in soccer, was the game and the athletes, the players, you know, they bring that same energy. doesn't matter where you are. could be America in a Portuguese league or in Russia in a Special Olympics program with young people playing and the game is the game. And that was, think that's what was always my approach was the game is the game. So it does, and it's equal to an equally open, make it equally open.

Alf Gracombe (45:45.377)
Well.

I'd say, you know, of all the people I know, in sports, in football, you have a particularly unique experience just in terms of the, different geographies in which you've lived and worked. And I know a lot of people in sports, you know, have, have that kind of background, but, you know, you're an Englishman, you went to school in the U S you worked in the U S you worked in Toronto and then back in Europe. and you were working at a very high level.

level in this leadership role. But talk a little bit about your transition out of Special Olympics and kind of what was behind that. What were you, where were you in your life? And then where were you physically? Cause I know now you're in Barcelona, but did you, is that where you went after that or were there other stops in between?

Mike Smith (46:33.526)
Yeah, so we were in Brussels and I think I'd done everything I wanted to do, to be honest. I loved the people and loved the challenge, traveling around all the countries, seeing the different cultures. And so it's all fascinating. And we just had our first child who was two or three years old. So that was a shift. Getting married, having kids and...

So we just, I think we're just looking for something different. so as a part of that, we looked at the map of Europe. And so we'll, you know, we've been in gray cloudy Brussels for 10 years. And so what could be next? So we looked around the whole Mediterranean coast phase. We've got the map of the Mediterranean coast.

My wife wanted to go to Turkey, that was on the cards at the time, we almost did but didn't. No, she's Belgian, so she was the local connection. so you look at Italy, you know, it's bit chaotic to go as a foreigner and build something there, because it didn't have any there, we're just independents now, looking for the next thing. The French coast, Riviera is very expensive.

Alf Gracombe (47:31.104)
And is she English as well, Mike?

Mike Smith (47:53.334)
So you go over the Pyramid and there's Barcelona, you know, and it's one of those things. So it was just doing that and looking where we would like to be. And then we'll figure it out. And then at the same time, I was talking to Curva Coaching. So Alf Calustian, one of the co-founders of Curva Coaching, along with Charlie Cook, very famous Chelsea player, have this organization that was just developing, was gaining momentum.

he had worked with me in Special Olympics. So the Coerver of coaching people, he would come to the World Games to do clinics and everything. He was really into that, trying to figure out how to do more ball mastery with our athletes and make that impact. So they were looking for somebody to help them grow their network. So that sounded good, also I could be remote. And...

Alf Gracombe (48:24.468)
Okay, so that's where you met Alf.

Mike Smith (48:47.222)
So that's what we decided on on Barcelona. And then we're actually living just south of Barcelona near a place called Sigis where we went on holiday when I was two years old. After the Franco era finished, Spain opened up. And so it was very funny. It's kind of talk about a big circle, you know.

Alf Gracombe (49:02.25)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (49:07.079)
I'll say, yeah.

Mike Smith (49:08.418)
we, we'd been there and I, and I recognized it or I was told, you know, I've shown the photos of me going to St. Jess when I was two. And that's life, you know? No, it was just, you know, was one of those things. And, no, we went there because, we had a growing family. had a second child and, the, the, the, environment, the weather, the, the family friendliness of the Spanish culture, everything seemed to fit. And we said, let's give it a year.

Alf Gracombe (49:14.048)
But that's not why you landed there. It just so happens that you'd been there before. Yeah.

Mike Smith (49:38.222)
as you do. Well, they do, particularly when you have kids and they get into school and you start making some friends. so we've been here 12, 13 years now ever since. plus the football is amazing. know, Barcelona was one of the most famous teams. And so the football culture here was also very big on a local level.

Alf Gracombe (49:40.424)
in a year has become how many now? Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (50:03.402)
So if I'm getting my dates correct, you moved there probably during the Guardiola Renaissance? Is that right? just...

Mike Smith (50:11.222)
Yeah, so it would be, would be, Guardiola was a player and then Guardiola became the coach. Yeah. So during those times, before he went to Man City and all that. So those early days. But it was, it was the era of Barcelona with Iniesta and Messi and many other players. So it was a different, different level of football hit the world, you know? So, yeah. So that became the influence. And with the Coerver.

Alf Gracombe (50:31.136)
Yeah, great time to be there, of course.

Mike Smith (50:40.568)
part, they're very much grounded in that revolution of football that came from Holland, came from Johan Cruyff, went to Barcelona, was picked up by Guardiola, Guardiola takes it to Man City, et cetera, you know, and that kind of skillful new modern game was what we were surrounded with. So that was good too, you know.

Alf Gracombe (51:02.516)
Yeah, well talk a little bit if you can about Coerver and maybe Alf Galustian and Charlie Cook as well. But the name Coerver, it's Wiel Coerver, right? A Dutch coach, correct?

Mike Smith (51:18.806)
Yes, he was a coach, very top level, pro coach, had a heart attack, got out of the pro game, then needed, you know, he's very analytical kind of coach and he wanted to figure out what made great players great.

And he started analyzing that and creating a method, a simple method around ball mastery, the importance of ball mastery, the importance of the modern game having every player being highly skillful, which was a new concept. And then that was kind of the total football of the Dutch team in the 80s, incredibly skillful positions, intermixing everywhere. was a new way to look at the game.

Alf Galustian and Charlie Cook, Charlie was one of the great Chelsea players, got together and acquired the rights to that methodology. then since then, for 40 years, grew that all over the world as kind of the number one way for kids to learn high level of skill, of core skills. And so they just celebrated their 40th anniversary as organization.

Alf Gracombe (52:27.178)
Yeah, congratulations.

Mike Smith (52:31.426)
We went to Adidas headquarters in Herzl, amazing trip, and Adidas have been a sponsor for 30 some years. So this organization that kind of laser focused on the technical side of the game in the bigger context of playing the game. so I joined them. And so I now coordinate licensees in Europe, Middle East, Africa, and Latin America. And so there we look for...

kind of like-minded coaches who want to bring this kind of methodology and teaching to players and promote that. And continues to grow around the world.

Alf Gracombe (53:12.288)
Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously the, you know, the Dutch influence on world football is, is, is very much outsized considering its size as a country, but it certainly exported more than a few ideas, in the world of football. So this has been your job. You're working internationally and you're, and you're working with a lot of these coaches now in different, different parts of the world. As you mentioned, I'm curious kind of how you have experienced that in terms of,

Differences or similarities from country to country and what you're seeing. I mean, these are coaches who are coming to Coerver So on some level they're they're probably very bought into this methodology or this approach to football But how do you see some of these things play out on the ground with these coaches and in different parts of the world?

Mike Smith (54:01.676)
Yeah, it does play out. That's what you learn for sure. With the Coerver methodology, it's a pretty set methodology. There's drills games, there's principles. It's what they brought to the game, a structure that coaches could learn. Not a complicated structure, but one that's fairly clearly defined. But yeah, you learn, and I think I learned that because I traveled a lot before anyway, that how you communicate that.

is going to be different in different countries. Football culture is a reflection of the culture, the bigger culture. The way the Latin, you know, we have a new program in Argentina and what the game is there, the depth of the game and the way kids absorb this.

to a very deep level of how to play and what they see and the Argentinian teams and the big players, highly competitive, know, kind of driven more from the maybe the poorer aspect of growing up in tough neighborhoods. There's a toughness to the game there that you don't see so much in the Nordic game, you know, which fairly affluent countries.

Alf Gracombe (55:09.13)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (55:17.558)
committed to education and growth and development and equality of girls and boys and women and men, it's very different. But so every time we set up a licensee, there are differences. And the way they approach things, some will be more focused on the structure. Some will not really want any structure at all. They want a few principles and then it's a more emotional game like in Latin America.

Alf Gracombe (55:43.751)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (55:47.424)
So, but I think the thing about the curve methodology, they developed it so it's flexible. can be adopted by different cultures.

But the kind of the big experiment from Coerver was in Japan. So Alf Galustian 30 some years ago went to Japan where football didn't really exist. The J League was just starting and developed a relationship with the federation who wanted to see the rise on a national level of football with the end result being they wanted top national teams that were respected and have some pride in that.

So it's interesting, know, he tells a lot of stories about working in Japan, which is, I mean, completely different culture. But what they do have is this patience and this iterative approach of how to develop. And it's long term, step by step. This could take 30 years, that's OK. And they're also highly disciplined. And so when players come to the field, they listen to everything that the coach says. That's how it is, you know.

Alf Gracombe (56:45.406)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (56:57.594)
And the coaches, if you're teaching coaches, when Alf walks in the room, will stand up and, know, and they have this learning culture and respect and discipline, which in a sense makes it easy to teach in one way. But what Alf said they have to try and bring in was more the Charlie Cook.

Alf Gracombe (57:12.362)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (57:17.39)
part of the business. He was an ex-player, highly skillful, highly emotional. He's the emotion behind the methodology. And he said, that's what we need to bring into that fighting spirit into the Japanese game. So you need both. And I think now when you look at the Japanese national teams, men and women, they're basically top 10 in the world or top 15 in the world.

Alf Gracombe (57:44.193)
Yeah, mean, Japan, similar to the US, was really nowhere on the international scene. And I think they certainly put forward respectable teams on the men's side. And then they won the tournament on the women's side, of course, which was a remarkable tournament. And actually, frankly, a tournament run that was fueled very much by a lot of emotion.

Mike Smith (57:56.46)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (58:06.656)
after the earthquake and the tsunami in Japan. That was one of the most remarkable sporting events and runs by a team that I think I saw. But yeah, so the women's game certainly has developed immensely in Japan.

Mike Smith (58:09.058)
Yes, yes, that's right.

Mike Smith (58:18.828)
Yeah, it's Huge. So that involvement in the women's game for Coerver was long time standing in the US.

global representative in the Coerver girls side is Kristine Lilly, one of the greatest players of all time. But she grew up as a Coerver kid, if you like, you know, mostly with boys, girls football didn't really exist. But somebody like that who went on to an amazing career will always explain why having those core skills was so important to her and how it set her one step above and how it helped to deal with the pressure

Alf Gracombe (58:42.868)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (59:01.154)
the growingly competitive game at the international level. You still had to fall back on those, that ability for first touch, the ability for 1v1, the ability to see space, those kind of core basic principles.

Alf Gracombe (59:17.984)
So how do you maybe.

talk a little bit about the Coerver principles which are very very technical very individual ball mastery oriented but then also this idea of small sided games as a development tool within you the youth system not that these things have to be an either or certainly but in relation to one another how do you experience that and how does Coerver also talk about small sided games in their methodology

Mike Smith (59:47.756)
Yeah, yes, because you can Coerver the original Coerver was very much based on repetition, ball mastery, the more time you spend with the ball and teach your brain.

rather than your feet, how to control and move the ball and manipulate the ball. That was that. And so that was kind of the mark of Coerver But it's been 40 years because you have two co-founders who are endlessly curious about and how can we do this better. They've evolved as the game has evolved. So ball mastery is still a foundation.

But on top of that, you build.

You build one V one, you build combinations, you build small group play. A lot of the the the practice in Coerver is in small groups, two V two, three V three, et cetera, et cetera. Because and I would agree with the people who say, you know, small sided play with conditions or constraints is a fantastic teacher. That's become, you know, for years an integral part of the Coerver method. So you have foundation skills, you have.

Alf Gracombe (01:00:42.272)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:01:00.938)
combinations, how you combine in small groups and then you have the more open small-sided game, how do you bring that into a game? So I think it there's been an evolution there. So it's come a long way from the work of Wiel Coerver, who is very much 99 % individual repetition to fit the, but the game has changed too, the demands of the game. I think Coerver's changed along with that. So I don't think it isn't either or I think both, both are useful, but

Alf Gracombe (01:01:18.773)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:01:30.9)
If you don't have the core skills of being that ball feeling, that ability to receive the ball, move with the ball, see space, the core things to pass to shoot the technical side of that, if you don't have that, then as the game gets less space, more pressure, you fall back on those skills in an intuitive way.

Alf Gracombe (01:01:58.919)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:02:00.342)
On the other hand, if you just do lots of repetition at training and that's it, then you're definitely taking away a big part of the game that will then show up. The lack of creativity, the lack of joy in the game, you'll see that. So I think it's an evolution, yes.

Alf Gracombe (01:02:15.456)
Are you familiar with, you in the US, the model recently that's been put forward in the youth game from US soccer has been this play practice play model. you familiar with that at all? Is that anything that... Okay.

Mike Smith (01:02:20.843)
you

Mike Smith (01:02:31.284)
No, tell me, but no. So play, practice, play sounds, yeah. You come in and you start with the game and then you do some practice and then you finish with the game. Yes.

Alf Gracombe (01:02:35.454)
Yeah, so fundamentally...

Alf Gracombe (01:02:39.584)
Exactly. And so part of it is actually very practical at the youth level because, you kind of get these small games going at the beginning of a practice and as it is like here in Jamaica Plain in Boston, Jamaica Plain Youth Soccer.

Kids kind of filter in over the course of, you know, 10 or 15 minutes. And so it's really helpful just to have these small games going. A coach can be playing and so, but you're fundamentally doing, you small games, three B three, four B four, two B two, even, you know, the first few kids show up and then just grow it. And then the middle part of the practice is the practice piece. And that's where you tend to do what I would, you know, again, to oversimplify a little bit more of like the Coerver, type of activity. That's more around ball mastery more, you know, single each

Mike Smith (01:03:03.394)
Yes. Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:03:21.336)
Yes.

Alf Gracombe (01:03:25.718)
player has a ball, they're doing these kind of practice activities to build skills. Kind of the hard-wiring stuff is what I call it. And then it's back at the end of the practice to then another small-sided game.

Mike Smith (01:03:32.834)
Yeah, yes. To a game always. Yes.

Alf Gracombe (01:03:38.771)
And so it kind of takes those two models and puts it into a framework for a practice. I found it very useful. It's only the last few years that we've really started to adopt it more. but it does speak, I think, to those two, aspects of development, the, the Coerver method, the hard wiring, the developing the skills, but then the in-game decision-making, the constraints that you can put on that.

Mike Smith (01:04:02.284)
Yes.

Alf Gracombe (01:04:03.934)
And it seems that's a lot of where the game is going on the youth development side.

Mike Smith (01:04:08.61)
Yes, and it sounds fine. I think that there are many ways to coach. There are many ways to implement. I think if on principle players need to spend plenty of time with the ball and learn moves, learn to teach the body how to manipulate the ball and embed that very deeply. But you have to play. You have to play as much as possible as well. So if you do both, I like the idea. Play, play, practice, play.

The practice is important. I think that's one thing, being around the Coerver program for years and seeing it work, being out in 20, 30 countries and going, my God, these players are good, you know, and seeing where they pick up this sense of the ball and the control of it and being able to then spend time finding space rather than messing with the ball. mean, these things, it works.

But I'm all for the idea that then you have to put it into, it's got to mean something in the game. But practice is key, you know, you got to practice, you have to practice.

Alf Gracombe (01:05:11.176)
into the game.

Do you see the Coerver methodology more effective at certain ages than others? And I don't want to ask that question.

Mike Smith (01:05:23.502)
Yeah, it's more for young. I think it started off more 6 to 12. And over the last five years, they've evolved more into small, it's more the small side of game approach that the next way into the team and what's what's needed there. So now I would say it's kind of 6 to 16. It's not the professional game, you know, although some of our coaches work with professional players, because, you know, the individual touch on the ball that you have to keep that sharp.

Alf Gracombe (01:05:28.49)
Okay.

Mike Smith (01:05:52.238)
And some top players still need to learn a move. That's just the way it is. There's many ways to coach and think as Alf Galussian told me, says, in the end, you coach what you believe. There's lots of sources, take it in, look at your team, feel good with the way you're coaching and look.

Alf Gracombe (01:05:57.792)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:06:18.911)
and look to the players and see how that's adding to the players game and be honest is the way you're coaching adding to their game.

Alf Gracombe (01:06:26.1)
Yeah. So, Mike, you've done a lot of work, of course, with curvers we just talked about, but, it's not all that you're, you're doing, in football. big idea of sports, maybe talk a little bit about, about that endeavor.

Mike Smith (01:06:43.394)
Yeah, big idea sports was concept again with a few football friends of besides doing the curvil work, we wanted a space where we could look at innovation and look at the youth game. What's the youth game need, you know, to move on to a level that is more inclusive and is better for kids. So that was our goal. You know, how can we make the game better for kids and curvil.

project is one way to do that. So we started looking at technology and how that might help. There's a lot of technology coming into the professional game. Some of it's trickling down into the youth game for good and bad. And we started to just ask, what does the game need? And it doesn't take much to go to a game, whether it be in America or in England or Spain or whatever. And Game Day is pretty...

can be pretty brutal still, you know? kind of the atmosphere, the pressure, the parents kind of mimicking the Barcelona fans against Madrid, you know? That bring you that intensity into it that is a bit over the top and we're this doesn't help, you know? And this is not helping the game.

and kids drop out early and the coaches are really becoming, you know, directive coaches from the sideline. Well, you know this, because they feel pressure from the parents and everything. Plus they model themselves, just like the kids model themselves on watching Messi and wanting to do that. You know, the coaches watch Guardiola or Zabi or whoever on the sidelines, you know, like this, you know.

Alf Gracombe (01:08:21.77)
And you're seeing that in... Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:08:37.984)
not understanding that's just part of the professional game, you know.

Alf Gracombe (01:08:40.8)
You know, as much as I love Guardiola as a good example, as a manager, I never, ever recommend to any coach that we work with here in the grassroots level to behave as he does on the touch line. know, just the instruction. I'm not sure what good he's even doing. These players, they know how to play, but...

Mike Smith (01:08:47.293)
Thank you.

Mike Smith (01:08:58.732)
No, yeah. I don't think Guardiola would either, you know, so yeah.

No, it's part of...

Alf Gracombe (01:09:09.664)
but he's very involved in the game often.

Mike Smith (01:09:11.978)
It's part of the pressure too on coaches where if you lose four or five games in a row in the Premier League, that means something. If you do that in a youth sports, it should not mean very much. And it just means, well, we've got to keep going. It's a totally different arena. So we're trying to think, what can we do? And we focused more in on how do help coaches? How do you help coaches get better? There's a lot of material.

Alf Gracombe (01:09:25.554)
It should not mean something.

Mike Smith (01:09:41.45)
lack of material, drills, games, everything out there. There's plenty of that already, don't need to go there. But this thing of how do you help coaches work on and improve and be more connected to the players that they're coaching? Because when a player goes out in the field every Sunday, that's a tough walk. It's a challenging situation, both physically, mentally, socially.

You know, being on a youth team is not the easiest thing, know, particularly in the environment of lots of parents around and whatever. And the coach is that grounding point for a lot of players and needs to be to understand this. This is this is not just a walk in the woods. This is this is players put a lot of importance on how they play and how they do. And so the role of the coach, what is the role of the coach? So we started looking into that, you know, and how a coach can help.

those players navigate the game, navigate the atmosphere, and how you can connect that to the training that they do, and how you can communicate better. So it really came down to helping coaches communicate good, positive, useful feedback to their players on a regular basis. And we looked into that, and we found that most coaches do feedback in a very general way.

in the team, how did we do? Yeah, the defense was a bit open or you know, we created some good stuff just didn't finish this kind of general approach. Where most individual kids couldn't care less about that. I mean, they listen, whatever. What kids care about is how they did during the game.

Alf Gracombe (01:11:21.418)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:11:24.512)
What parents care about is how their kid did during the game. So we decided to develop a tool to help coaches observe a game in a way, more individual way of how's that player doing? How's Alf doing in a particular skill or in his team spirit or whatever.

Alf Gracombe (01:11:43.889)
He's still working on his first touch to answer the question for you.

Mike Smith (01:11:47.212)
Yeah, well then that would come up. then so what do do? You know, but so we developed a we've developed a version one of an application, simple application for coaches, particularly for beginner coaches, to learn how to look at the game from a developmental point of view, and then how to see the game from an observer point of view to step back.

and not get overly involved in the emotion of the crowd and the score and everything. But how are our players doing? And not just not as a group, how is Alf doing? How's Mike doing? How's Gene doing? And being able to capture those thoughts and then transforming those into useful feedback. so we've created an application to do that called Match Fives and we're testing it and

If you go to the Big Idea Sport website, can see a bit of information on it. If there are coaches out there who want to try it with their teams, we're into the testing phase. We'd love to try it out with anybody. But we really, from the testing we've done, the feedback has been, you know, it actually just helps you step back from the emotion of the game and be more of a, what value can I add to this? The fact is a coach can't add any value during the game.

Alf Gracombe (01:13:09.588)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:13:09.856)
or very little during the game. The value is in taking observation point of view and think how are we doing? How are we playing? What are we doing well? And particularly from the individual, start off with that. What are we doing well? You know? So Alf, what did you do well? Okay, now let's have a talk about what could be the next level. So we developed this tool and it's around...

well done, what's next approach from coaches on an individual level throughout the season and involving parents in that discussion. So they understand why we doing this. The coach actually cares about my kid and is trying to help them develop as an individual, you know, the I in team, I guess you would call it.

Alf Gracombe (01:13:46.74)
Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (01:13:55.519)
But you know, you know, tech has always been a part of sport, but certainly the technology has evolved exponentially just in the last, you know, even, you know, five, six years. And of course we see it in the professional game. And it's inevitable that we'll be looking for applications for the tech at the youth level.

Mike Smith (01:14:08.494)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:14:20.034)
Yes, inevitable.

Alf Gracombe (01:14:21.584)
And it feels to me, and I'd be curious to get your perspective on this, but we're at a moment where we have access to a lot of tech.

but we're not really sure how to incorporate it into youth sports and development more broadly. And I always, on a personal level, enjoy or kind of look to tech that enables improved reflection and kind of assist a bit in maybe perceiving the things that I might be missing.

Mike Smith (01:14:34.285)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:14:38.659)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (01:14:54.324)
But I kind of, you work in this space, what are you seeing in terms of trends around tech adoption in the world of football or youth sports generally?

Mike Smith (01:15:04.374)
Yeah.

As you say, it tends to trickle down from the professional game. So tech is used hugely in professional game. So there's this pressure that if you're serious, football club could be seven year olds or eight year olds, but if you're serious, you will look to that technology and put tracking devices in their boots and do heat mapping and all this kind of stuff. But you and I know, and most people know that there's a positive kind of better future side of tech and there's a dark side to tech.

in everything, social media, everything, right? But that includes anything that comes from the professional game that is being offered to the youth game. You have to take their look, and it's the role, the responsibility, particularly of the coach to really look into that carefully. Just because it's used by Barcelona FC doesn't mean it's going to fit your local youth team.

So you have to have some critique, you've to look at it. In the pros of tech, it helps with club management, training ideas, injury tracking, nutrition, via yes or no. Not bad, we're not using it very well. But there's a positive side to it, to most things in tech, right? I mean, there is. But the negative, I think on the media side, there's too much tech, there's too much media tech.

Football is becoming diluted and just a tsunami of football and then people start to lose interest in a way in the nuance of the game. Sports journalism, you see data coming into sports journalism which kills the game.

Alf Gracombe (01:16:43.563)
yeah.

Mike Smith (01:16:43.624)
Everyone now looks at the rankings of this play was 7.74 and the other play was 6.8 as if that means something. But that's starting to creep into, that over analysis is starting to creep into the game. I don't know you see that but...

Alf Gracombe (01:17:00.702)
I absolutely see it. mean, you kids my son, you know plays EA sports FIFA probably won't put that in the show notes, but You know every player is Is this quantified on these different, know skill set they have it resolves all up to a certain number of this players in 84, right and You know, this is like one of the questions that I had for you

Mike Smith (01:17:14.924)
Yes.

Alf Gracombe (01:17:28.562)
You know, you've been working in sports and youth sports for, for, for a long time now, and you've seen, you know, more tech, come into the game, but, and, and also just touching on what we talked about earlier, it's like seeing football in these different cultures, these different geographies. you talk about, you know, individuals playing the game, expressing their skill and their personality in the game.

And there's, think tech maybe takes us a bit away from that potentially. I don't want to oversimplify of course, but you know, why to you is personal expression in sport so important?

Mike Smith (01:18:04.131)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:18:14.54)
I think that's because that's one of the rare opportunities in a way I the sport gives you because of...

Sport in itself is kind of a demarcation of a almost sacred, you know, space where individuals can go into that is separate from the outside things we have to do and everything. There's a very kind of special place where you can play. It's a place of play and it's a place play along with play goes self-expression. Young kids know this very well. They carve out some little area and they play very seriously. know, not the place not serious.

but it's creative and I think that's what you know that's what that's what sport and football can be it's its own space and what what that that brings with it the opportunity of freedom I think it's these they don't have a lot of freedom funnily enough you know there's all kinds of stuff they have but and they enjoy but I don't think they have that sense of freedom

I talk about that just because that was our experience. Maybe we just don't get it, you know, but our experience was in the game, you give it everything, but you give it in a way that gives you a sense of freedom. And I was a player that always just wanted to play and just play. And you just, you don't want a coach yelling at you. You just play with your friends and your teammates and you make it work. And the game is designed to bring that out.

that kind of creativity and freedom. But it's a porous game from influence from outside. It's not a box that is kind of titanium covered that keeps all the influence out. And I think that's what drives, that's what guides me is that that's the best times. That's what I experienced through my sport.

Alf Gracombe (01:19:48.34)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:20:15.218)
and that is unique and it also helps your spirit and who you are in a very deep way that is not calculated or measurable and tech is calculated and measurable in general.

Alf Gracombe (01:20:24.61)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (01:20:30.848)
Yeah, think it does, tech does force us or encourage us into that space of the quantitative. But there is, if I could agree with you more on this point, would, sport does provide this sacred space. some of my earliest memories were just...

I grew up in the suburbs of Northern Virginia, we would create, we lived on a cul-de-sac, right? This is the kind of planned suburban community. So it's a road that just ends in a circle.

Mike Smith (01:21:06.358)
Yes, perfect. In the circle, yeah.

Alf Gracombe (01:21:10.912)
And around that were a few houses and each house had a driveway. And so we created a space within that circle that we played on asphalt with the family. There were three boys up the street. They were all older, but they were all soccer players. And my brothers and I would play with them multiple ages. And we created this space. And one driveway on one side was a goal, and on the other side was another goal.

Mike Smith (01:21:34.146)
Yes.

Alf Gracombe (01:21:36.429)
And, you know, it's easy to talk about these things, part of it's nostalgia for your own childhood and the like, but, you know, that was very much a part of my experience growing up and learning the game and I learned a lot there in that circle. So, you know, I agree with you, like, I think we do need to really scrutinize.

Mike Smith (01:21:40.588)
me.

Alf Gracombe (01:21:59.677)
I'm not the one being interviewed here, but I'll put forward my idea on this. I think we really need to scrutinize how we adopt tech in the sport specifically and how we adopt and how adults are involved as well.

Mike Smith (01:22:02.605)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:22:06.072)
Yes, I think so.

Mike Smith (01:22:12.108)
Yeah, and I think you just can't you can't you can't be naive and as a coach or if you're running a sports program and and there's a lot of that just letting it happen because Yeah, it's the trend, you know and look and it's always look at the pros look at the pros and I think that our process

The kids look at the pros and they get inspired by it and good. Now let's take the pros out of it, you know, and let's develop a good program for kids. That's what you're about. And the good program for the kids game, which is not the pro game.

But the pro had pro game can have enormously positive influence but in in in technology, you know, it's interesting I was watching, you know, this is a new program on Netflix About the Saudi League the Saudi professional league now with Renato Benzema and these people know how that's shaping football the next generation side. It's very interesting and

Alf Gracombe (01:23:01.856)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:23:11.01)
There was one of the coaches, foreign coach, German coach with a top player, and they're doing their post game kind of analysis, know, post game catch up, right? And this professional, right? So he's talking about the game and the player had a good game and he's just talking like you and me about the game and this and this and this. And then he sort of swivels his computer over and so let's have a look at the stats, you know? And.

And then both of them, their tone drops, you know, the emotion drops, their interest drops. And the player just kind of looks, yeah, yeah, hmm. Had no impact whatsoever, you know, because we've already done it. We've already talked about the game and, you know, to know, you, you, know, you ran two kilometers more than the last game. Not sure if that's good or bad, but you know.

Alf Gracombe (01:23:44.416)
Hmm.

Alf Gracombe (01:23:48.884)
Hmm.

Mike Smith (01:24:04.482)
But it's, I can see it, there's a point in, there's the, there are marginal games in gains in the program tactically and technically maybe that tech can bring. There's no doubt, right? And it's a game of tight margins, but I don't think ultimately that's going to make the difference with the top players and the way the game changes. In the youth game, it has no application personally, I think. And you'll get that same reaction, you know, kids might.

Alf Gracombe (01:24:16.441)
Mm-hmm. Sure, sure.

Alf Gracombe (01:24:27.381)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:24:32.078)
look at something interesting, but it won't improve the game and it shifts them more into the video game world. I think we're trying to shift them away from as a other side of the video game world is that game. anyway, as we got into developing Match 5, we tried to ask these questions.

Alf Gracombe (01:24:40.254)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Smith (01:24:56.374)
You know, how can you develop something that is just good human centers, spirit building, good for coaches, good for parents. And it's not easy when you start then creating something to make sure.

Alf Gracombe (01:25:08.884)
Yeah. Yeah. And the impulse in many ways drives you or takes you towards complexity. And one of the things I love to say about football is that it's a simple game. And, you know.

Mike Smith (01:25:14.902)
Yes, in a way, yeah. It's a simple game, yeah. So anyway, in the end we just said no tracking. So no, no visual tracking, no rankings, no player boards, no micro analysis. Those are our four principles that we try to stick to when we design this platform for coaches and players and parents, yeah.

Alf Gracombe (01:25:37.215)
Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. Love it. Well, this is a great little, got a couple more questions for you, Mike. And, I think this is actually a good segue into the next one is, you talk about coaches in the youth game. and you've seen a lot in your career for sure, but if I'm a coach, I've got a seven year old, eight year old, who's just starting to play and I want to get involved and coach, coach her team.

Where do you start as a coach? Do you start with scouring the internet for practice plans? Do you start with getting some core principles? What advice do you have for new coaches?

Mike Smith (01:26:21.71)
Yeah, there's a lot. I think, know, reading the blog that out, because it's been your background, it is important to first, I agree, look at what's your coaching principles, you know, why are you doing this? Why are we doing youth soccer?

What are we looking for? What's the outcome? What's a winning season? What does that look like? What does that mean? These are very important, I think, first questions. Before you get to the how am I going to coach, it's the why am I coaching and why are we doing this? Because it's taken for granted, because it's good for kids. Being on a sports team is good for kids. Well, that depends on many things and it can be unbelievably good and when it's well done, there's nothing like it, right?

Alf Gracombe (01:27:03.744)
That's right. We hope it is. We hope it is.

Mike Smith (01:27:10.092)
what it builds for life. but I think it is that asking those two questions. Then you're looking for material. I'm biased because I've worked with Coerver for a long time. I would say take a look at it because there's a lot of really good material, the basic courses, the intro course, the youth diploma.

Alf Gracombe (01:27:25.67)
I would absolutely agree with that.

Mike Smith (01:27:31.18)
but go to the federation, the federation have growingly good material. I think that you have to say they're improving. They're looking at the wider picture of why are we doing this? How can you design a session that's good for kids? So I think there's a lot more available. It's just for the beginner coach, I think it can be overwhelming. just the three piece of advice, as you said, keep it simple. You don't need 50 drills and you don't need 25 more. The Barcelona FC Academy.

you don't need that. You need your core 10, you know, basic structure. But for the youngest players, it'll be more how you coach them, you know, your attitude to them, how you make every player feel relaxed and recognized and give them a perspective on everything that goes wrong during the game. There's more that doesn't quite go right than goes right. And you've got to love that, you know, to say,

Alf Gracombe (01:28:02.025)
You

Alf Gracombe (01:28:22.762)
Yeah.

That's right.

That's right, the game has plenty of failure for everyone in it, that's part of the beauty of it, right?

Mike Smith (01:28:32.949)
Yeah, I don't even call it failure. mean, actually, you can call it failure in the technical senses. They get older. Come on, you know, we can improve on that one for sure. For the younger ones, that matters. It's all they're out playing the game, going on the field, know, mimicking their...

the pros they watch on TV and the game takes over and that's enough. But practice-wise, you can help them develop their confidence by giving them plenty of time on the ball, technical skills. You can do that and that will be seen, they'll be more confident on the field. And if things are not going well, you just gotta be there for them in a personal way. So make it...

You know, you've got to be positive, but you've got to be personal. You can't be coaching the pro game. You can't be doing that. You're coaching the kids what's in front of you, but nothing new in that, I suppose. And I guess the last one, this comes from the curve of, know, philosophy too, is because practice is really important.

I think in a way, in a different way, kids can learn more from the practice sessions than the game. I think the game has its own dynamic and it teaches resilience when you're down and many good things. And something's on the line. Putting, you you've got skin in the game here, that's life, you've got to do that. But training itself is preparing for that.

Alf Gracombe (01:29:48.0)
Sure.

Mike Smith (01:30:03.438)
So in the Coerver way is that the game day for young players is just an extension of practice. It's an extension of development. Whether you win 2-1 or lose 2-1 is of little importance, know, really for a coach.

Alf Gracombe (01:30:19.72)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so thinking of those games as developmental opportunities as much as they are competitive ones.

Mike Smith (01:30:23.702)
Yes, yeah, it's yeah.

Yeah, and it's a slightly high level of competition, but that's okay. But still, how are we doing? Are we developing? That's the question. And just reflecting on that. But I think for a beginner coach, it can be daunting. You know that better than I do. But there's plenty of information out there, but just take it step by step and love. Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (01:30:52.778)
Yeah, yeah. And keep it simple. think that's great. That's great advice. Just generally, it's easy to, yeah.

Mike Smith (01:30:57.548)
love being with the kids, you know, yeah. But try to improve them if you can, yeah. But in the game, shh, don't say a thing except well done. Don't say anything else.

Alf Gracombe (01:31:06.912)
Love it. Love it. Yeah. Well, great. So Mike, I really appreciate your time. I've got one last question for you. I always ask this. Any resources, any particular things that you return to in your coaching or thinking about the youth game, anything you can share with some of our listeners.

Mike Smith (01:31:30.892)
Yeah, so you asked me to look at that. so I'm like you, an avid reader of the game and anything around it or leadership or coaching or, so you take your sources from all over the place, particularly on the internet now, you know, there's so much. But book wise, I still read books. People listening still read books, but hopefully, you some of them do. And it is important to read books. So there's a very famous book from a...

Alf Gracombe (01:31:51.134)
You

Mike Smith (01:32:01.185)
Yeah.

scientist if you like from the past called Desmond Morris. He wrote the Naked Ape, very famous book. So he wrote a book called The Soccer Tribe.

And this book is, I think it's been republished now, you know, because it went out and, I read it when I was 20 years old, you know, it was called The Soc's Tribe. And it is this tribute to the depth of the game all the way back to our ancestors, why we have this urge to play and compete and set up games. And so it's a bit about the history of the game from a point of view of the human, the humankind, the way humans

Alf Gracombe (01:32:14.4)
Hmm.

Alf Gracombe (01:32:35.146)
Hmm.

Mike Smith (01:32:44.152)
think, but it has all the history of the game. So if you enter the game as a coach, I think it gives it gives that scope of how big and deep this game is, you know, and I think for a beginner coach too is it's there. Don't worry. Once you once you get a ball and a field and two goals, a lot of this just takes over, you know, and and

Alf Gracombe (01:32:48.586)
Well.

Alf Gracombe (01:32:56.288)
Mm-hmm.

Alf Gracombe (01:33:06.592)
Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:33:08.258)
because it has been doing that since, I know, they invented something round to kick. So that's a great book, The Soccer Tribe by, it's not a coaching book. So I thought it was one that's not. One that's more around leadership and so coaching leadership, lessons from coaches, more from the college level or pro level, but more from the college level, I think, by Sally Jenkins and it's called The Right Call. It's very good.

Alf Gracombe (01:33:12.026)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (01:33:18.75)
Yeah. Excellent.

Mike Smith (01:33:37.87)
It's really good at establishing principles for coaching. And it's good read. She's a great writer. She's New York Times writer. She's really, you know, it's pleasure to read, but you come away with some interesting things for your professional life as well as your coaching life. So it's a good one. Sally Jenkins, The Right Call. And last one is just on LinkedIn. So I follow a lot on LinkedIn.

Alf Gracombe (01:33:38.014)
right call.

Alf Gracombe (01:33:59.009)
Sally Jenkins. Yeah.

Mike Smith (01:34:05.354)
Once in a while you find good articles and there's the manager of football development for the Dutch Federation, Aarge van der Breggen, and I'll give you the content there. And I think the Dutch Federation is very forward thinking.

and they ask a lot of questions about what's good for kids and also how do you develop top players as well? do you devise the different settings for different kids at different levels? And he's very, very passionate about that part of the game.

It also shows what leadership from a federation or an association can do. I think in the US game that's more disparate, it's more fragmented structures. But even leadership like you within a club. So it gives some good ideas there. So anyway, those are mine. That's my list.

Alf Gracombe (01:34:51.476)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Alf Gracombe (01:35:01.856)
Yeah, excellent. That's great, Mike. Thank you. I'll put all of those in the show notes. So for folks who can look at that later, have links to those things. you know, I'll just say also with you mentioned LinkedIn, I've been surprised myself in these last few months as I've been kind of reorganizing my own kind of professional and career life.

LinkedIn has been an incredible resource. There's a lot of people who are actually publishing some content on that platform. It's a great way to connect and network with people working in the game all around the world as well. I certainly, you and I connect there on occasion and there's just a lot of great content and it's a great place to start.

Mike Smith (01:35:28.877)
Mm.

Mike Smith (01:35:35.554)
Yeah, I think so.

Mike Smith (01:35:47.278)
It's a good community on there and lots of different points of view. yeah, it's a good one.

Alf Gracombe (01:35:53.983)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Mike, I always love when we chat. This is the first one we've recorded and I just looked at the clock and we've gone over 90 minutes. We're in stoppage time now. But this was the phenomenal thing.

Mike Smith (01:36:01.282)
I think you might have to divide it into part one and part two. Yeah, can't stop talking so I'm sorry about that.

Alf Gracombe (01:36:12.512)
Hey, it's a podcast. That's exactly why we're what we're here to do. this has been phenomenal. it's always great talking to you and I appreciate your time and then just being on, the podcast here. And, we'll definitely get the show notes out for everyone to see. And, you can, you can come to coach craft podcast to find that info, but yeah, Mike, again, thank you. and, I look forward.

Mike Smith (01:36:18.412)
No, but it's, yeah.

Mike Smith (01:36:23.288)
Yeah, you too.

Mike Smith (01:36:29.814)
Yeah, great.

Mike Smith (01:36:36.696)
Yeah.

You're really welcome. You know, I wish you luck with your with your project and I see how it's starting to take shape, you know, with your your blog and and and the podcast. And I think there's a space for it because there's a lot of stuff out there on sport and football. But the youth coach approach is to do it intelligently and.

with some really good intent. I think there is a space for that. I see it. Patience. That is fun.

Alf Gracombe (01:37:10.056)
Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate you saying that. you know, Hey, this is fun. You know, getting to, I think, just have these conversations. That's a lot of what coaching is about is knowledge sharing, making connections, building relationships. And, you know, there's just a lot of really, really smart people out there, dedicated people who are working.

Mike Smith (01:37:23.82)
Yeah, yeah.

Mike Smith (01:37:28.802)
Yeah, different perspectives, right? I mean...

Alf Gracombe (01:37:31.498)
Yeah, and that's, you know, you can never have enough perspective and yeah, I think we all got a lot today. So again, Mike, thank you and.

Mike Smith (01:37:39.688)
You're welcome. Thank you for that. Yeah. All right now. Yeah, yeah, you too. And look forward to seeing it. I'll send you the contact from my friend Chris Quinn in Qatar. And I think that there'll be a nice addition. And you really like the way he's very, he's very articulate and he comes very much from the.

Alf Gracombe (01:37:44.384)
Excellent. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks again, Mike.

Alf Gracombe (01:37:58.069)
Beautiful.

Mike Smith (01:38:06.946)
the mindful side and that kind of vibe. He's not your typical football coach.

Alf Gracombe (01:38:11.264)
Excellent.

Yeah, good. yeah, I appreciate getting a chance to get connected with him. So thanks very much. All right. We will talk again soon. All right, Mike, thank you. You as well.

Mike Smith (01:38:17.548)
Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay, Alf, have a good day. See you. We will. You take care. Bye then. Bye bye.