Rick Fenoglio - Sports Science, Neurological Development, and Youth Sports

This episode features Rick Fenoglio, an American-born sports scientist and soccer development expert with over three decades of experience working with top clubs in the UK, including Manchester United and Manchester City. The conversation explores Fenoglio's journey from playing multiple sports in Illinois to becoming a leading advocate for small-sided games and science-based youth development approaches in soccer.

Fenoglio explains how the human body's 30 trillion cells adapt specifically to training environments, offering insights into why certain training methods are more effective than others. He discusses his groundbreaking research at Manchester United that helped transform youth academy training methods, moving away from traditional 8v8 formats to 4v4 games that increase player engagement and skill development.

Drawing from his extensive experience in sports science and current role as a worldwide senior scout for Manchester City, Fenoglio shares valuable perspectives on player development, training methodology, and creating effective learning environments for young players.

For more information about CoachCraft, visit https://coachcraft.info.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Rick Fenoglio
• 3:43 Rick's Early Life and Sports Background
• 5:47 Transition to Soccer
• 9:44 Soccer Becomes a Passion
• 10:12 Early Professional Experiences
• 12:39 Move to the UK and Sports Science
• 15:20 Understanding Sports Science
• 19:21 Small-Sided Games and Their Importance
• 24:01 The Evolution of Youth Development
• 28:18 Motor Skills and Learning Approaches
• 31:59 Diverse Approaches to Youth Soccer Training
• 33:11 Age Appropriateness in Small-Sided Games
• 35:25 The Role of Competition in Youth Soccer
• 37:39 Navigating Social Media and Coaching Philosophy
• 39:44 Coaching as Observation and Adjustment
• 42:28 Balancing Winning and Development in Youth Soccer
• 44:58 Evolving Trends in Youth Coaching
• 48:30 The Coach's Role in a Player-Centric Game
• 53:11 Resources and Community for Coaches
• 55:19 Scouting in Modern Football
• 1:01:27 Advice for New Coaches
• 1:03:25 Takeaways

Transcript

Rick Fenoglio (00:00)
The human body has evolved to come out of the caves and off the grasslands to learn how to do things. And the human body has 30 trillion, 30 trillion cells, Nerve cells, muscle cells, brain cells, the 30 trillion components adapting to whatever you do to it. Now I think coaches either don't realize this or forget this, all right? the body will react specifically to what you do in training.

Alf Gracombe (00:38)
Welcome to the CoachCraft podcast where we explore the art of coaching youth sports through conversations with exceptional coaches. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the philosophies, experiences, stories, and insights of coaches who are making a difference in their communities and beyond. I'm your host, Alf Gracombe and I hope CoachCraft will inspire you to learn from these coaches and improve your craft as a coach and a leader in your youth sports communities. Thank you for being here and welcome to the show.

Today's guest is Rick Fenoglio. Rick brings over three decades of experience to the world of soccer as a distinguished scientist, author, coach educator and consultant. During his 30-year tenure as senior lecturer in football at Manchester Metropolitan University, he has collaborated with prestigious organizations including the English FA, the Premier League, and the Professional Footballers Association.

Currently serving as a worldwide senior scout for Manchester City and the City Football Group, he's worked as an academy auditor and senior lecturer for the club's BA honors program and community coaching. On the red side of Manchester, he has performed work for Manchester United, including authoring key research reports on youth development, small-sided games, and training methodology.

As co-founder of Give Us Back Our Game, campaign that has influenced football ethics policies internationally, demonstrates his commitment to preserving the sports essence while embracing modern innovation. His expertise spans from scouting and curriculum development to skill acquisition coaching, making him a valued consultant for academies, clubs, and leagues worldwide. Please enjoy this deep dive into Rick's work and this thought-provoking conversation on developing young athletes.

Alf Gracombe (02:31)
Welcome Rick Fenoglio. I'm delighted to have you on the show. Welcome to the Coach Craft podcast.

Rick Fenoglio (02:37)
Thanks Alf, it's great to be here. I'm humbled to be here and looking forward to it very much so.

Alf Gracombe (02:44)
Awesome. Well, Rick, I've got to know you a little bit and there's, two things about your background that I think are certainly very interesting to me. And I think will be interesting to others as well. first and foremost, you're of American origin, but, you've been working and living in, in Europe, for most of your professional life. And, secondly, your background is, rooted in, academia and sports science.

And that has been kind of the basis and the undergirding, if you will, of your work in the game, in football. yeah. And so I think these are just two very interesting things about your story. so spend just a little bit of time upfront. I'd love to hear where it began for you, going back to when you were a kid and just what the sports landscape was like and what it was like for you growing up.

Rick Fenoglio (03:24)
Yeah, that's absolutely fair to say, definitely.

Right, so I grew up in Northern Illinois in Rockford in a suburban house with lots of trees and lots of land and lots of play areas in the neighborhood and I was a typical North American boy basically. If you've ever seen the show,

Wonder Years with, with, with little Kevin, was in kind of suburban city and, just growing up and, and doing everything. And I remember, I always tell the joke that when I was four, I made the conscious decision to, uh, enlarge my neural networks by doing everything possible in my environment. so like, you know, it's a very, it was a very typical upbringing.

That would kind of provide the groundwork for lot of my thoughts on the game, on soccer and soccer training. So yeah, we did everything. I didn't play soccer really growing up. It was basketball mainly. I wanted to be Pistol Pete Maravich and American football, baseball, of course, running races. Yeah, just anything and everything. couldn't keep me in is probably what my mom would say.

It was a great childhood. I have to put my hands up and say I had a lot of freedom to explore and thus, you know, learn to do different things and yeah, build my neural networks that helped me, you know, in sports throughout my life.

Alf Gracombe (05:04)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, you you, certainly raise a point here that growing up, least in North America or the U S now that experience probably does look different for, for, for a lot of kids this age. And so we'll certainly get to, how that, feeds into the youth game here and development, soccer development for sure. But, before we get to that, so when did soccer first come into your purview?

Rick Fenoglio (05:47)
Well, I did play for a year and a half at the age of 10 or 11 at a new school I was at, but I didn't take it seriously and it wasn't my favorite sport. Just to cut a long story short, when I was 14, our family moved to Bristol, Tennessee, and there was no soccer there at the time. I mean, there was a little bit, but it wasn't on my radar type of thing. So I, again,

I played basketball, American football. I was a wide receiver. Yeah, I didn't play soccer, but I went to university at the University of Tulane in New Orleans and I was a walk-on as a wide receiver. And after the first year of practice and stuff, I came to the cold, stark realization that I wasn't going to be an NFL player. I was too short.

too slow basically. So I needed something to do to keep playing sports basically. And as it turned out, in the spring when I was planning to leave, I just started playing pickup soccer again on the quad at Tulane University in New Orleans with my classmates and stuff, my buddies.

And it's a cliche of cliches, but I absolutely fell in love with the game. And one of the things that I really, really enjoyed was the freedom to make my own decisions. Now you can do that a little bit in basketball, but in American football as a wide receiver, you receive a playbook of 110 different routes exactly. Go down five steps, take a 30 degree turn to the left.

Alf Gracombe (07:27)
Mm-hmm.

set of instructions, right?

Rick Fenoglio (07:38)
turn around, look, you know, that type of thing. So soccer was, I mean, I wasn't very good at it. I mean, you know, it's a very, very difficult sport, especially for American or North American children who grow up using their hands mainly for sports. So yeah, it was a big learning curve, but I think what it did fuel in me was this, I wanted to get better. No question about it.

sure.

Alf Gracombe (08:08)
So Rick, if you don't mind my interrupting, so

you're rooted in football and basketball, and now you're playing pickup soccer on the quad on campus. But just quickly, if you can, did you find there were transferable skills from these other sports you've been playing that showed up in your soccer game?

Rick Fenoglio (08:27)
Absolutely. I think probably basketball with its quick movements and change of directions left, left and right and stuff like that definitely helped me when I became a midfielder or whatever, attacking midfielder. So then I decided to leave Tulane University and I transferred back to Tennessee to the University of Tennessee and tried out for the club team at for the Vols.

And I walked into three years of just an amazing adventure with some great guys who are still my good friends. And we won back to back SEC titles. We worked hard for each other. We were friends. We were playing because of the team. it wasn't Division One

It was club and it was fun and it was camaraderie, friendship, teamwork. I've had a lot of good experiences, but that was probably one of the most enjoyable, rewarding, you know, for my life. Just good friends.

Alf Gracombe (09:34)
And so soccer is officially your favorite sport at this point, would you say? Okay. Okay.

Rick Fenoglio (09:39)
It is absolutely. I'm all in. I'm all in.

Alf Gracombe (09:44)
Alright, so from there, where to after college?

Rick Fenoglio (09:45)
Yeah, so

from there, that was 1982 I graduated and I had a couple of trials with North American soccer, Tampa Bay Rowdies and Cosmos. And then I moved to Massachusetts. I had an internship with a company in Boston, a fitness and conditioning company.

and kept playing. So I ended up playing in as a, you could call it semi-pro. I got paid, I don't remember, 50 bucks a week to play in the Portuguese LASA League in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. And I know you had Mike Smith on here a week ago and he and I figured that we actually played against each other in that league.

Alf Gracombe (10:31)
It's a funny coincidence. Yeah,

Rick Fenoglio (10:37)
My team won, course, but he would

Alf Gracombe (10:37)
he's... I don't know if that's the same story he shared, but...

Rick Fenoglio (10:42)
argue with that.

Alf Gracombe (10:43)
Yeah, it's

a strange coincidence because I have known Mike for a few years and he was a guest on the show just a couple weeks ago. And he's who, you know, mentioned you and how I've come to meet you originally, but it was not through the LASA League here in Massachusetts that you guys actually met, but you made the connection I think later on. Is that right? Yeah.

Rick Fenoglio (11:03)
Yeah, absolutely. And

that, again, that was a really good experience pretty much for the internationalism. was Portuguese, Brazilian. I was one of two American players. Most were Portuguese speaking and Brazilian speaking Portuguese.

Again, at the club, and that's one thing about European clubs, we would go to the game, we'd play the game, and then there would be a three or four hour party with dinner and just all into the night. So was a real community social event. And I liked that part of it too.

Alf Gracombe (11:40)
Yeah,

Rick Fenoglio (11:40)
And I learned a lot about the differences in players from different countries and the styles and even their physiology, the way they were built. You can tell a Brazilian player a mile off the way they move on the pitch.

their touch and control. I learned a lot then and it's helped me in my scouting work for Man City. Just about national, international differences in playing styles and players.

Alf Gracombe (12:06)
Mm-hmm.

Well, so then, I don't know how much we want to fast forward here, but I'm interested just to hear a little bit more than about as you develop professionally in the game at this point, had you said to yourself, you know, I want to work in football. want to professionally career wise. This is where I want to be. So maybe talk a little bit about just how you, got to.

Rick Fenoglio (12:18)
Sure.

Alf Gracombe (12:35)
to the UK and then your work on the sports science side.

Rick Fenoglio (12:39)
Right.

I got to the UK because my wife at the time was English. She was from Manchester and we decided to move from Boston and it was either back to the Midwest or the South or England and we chose England. yeah, we sold everything, had a big yard sale as you do in America and moved to, moved to England. I got a job as a lecturer in sport, sports science, and they were

very interested in me because of my American background and at the time American conditioning research and skills American professional sports teams they know their conditioning you know American football and stuff like that at the time teams in England especially not football teams they didn't take that type of approach to it so

I hit it lucky, I guess, that I was one of the people starting at that time that were bringing or saw what science and conditioning and a more methodical approach to the physical side could do for football players and rugby players and other sports in the UK. So that's when I started teaching sports science, where I learned about general principles and stuff.

which again provided some underpinning for what I feel and think about the game. And I started to work with national sports teams in different sports, netball, weightlifting, but with football, alpine skiing. I worked with a British alpine ski team for development squad for a couple of years, but I always wanted to work back in football. Soccer was always my thing and my love.

So I wanted, of course, to work for Manchester United, didn't I? That's just the way it is.

Alf Gracombe (14:35)
You were a fan of United at the time. She's a Red,

Rick Fenoglio (14:38)
Yeah, my ex-wife is a red.

She's a red. So at the moment, I'm a Red okay, but I work for the Blues. It's okay, okay.

Alf Gracombe (14:47)
Yeah, we'll have to talk about this at some point, how you've managed to be on both the

red and the blue side of Manchester in your lifetime. So for the lay person, this sort of sports science, maybe can you just explain what that means?

and maybe a little bit some history as well, because you mentioned maybe in the US, we were a little bit maybe ahead of the game professionally and thinking about bringing science into sports. But yeah, just if you can just describe what do we mean by sports science.

Rick Fenoglio (15:20)
Yeah, the general definition

of sports science falls into three different areas. The physical side, the mental side or psychology and the technique, biomechanics, movement skill side. So within that moniker of sports science, usually get those three main categories of practitioners. Yeah, so.

Where do you want to go now?

Alf Gracombe (15:50)
Well, no, that's perfect. then just, again, a little bit of just understanding it for the lay person, because I think most folks listening to this podcast won't have that background or understanding. But I think this is, you know, as we start to talk about youth development, skill development, motor skill development, and applying that to the game, you know, this is, this is, I think, a very interesting area for us to explore.

Rick Fenoglio (16:02)
Okay.

Yeah, okay. So basically every sport

is different and every sport obviously has greater or lesser degree of freedom for the performers or players and a greater or lesser degree of technique that's needed to perform. So for instance, a gymnast, highly technical, a basketball or football player, soccer player, less technical in a sense.

but a very, very different experience for the performer. And each sport will have its own combination of the four corners and Physical, Mental, Technical, Tactical

So, so yeah, so the core principles, however, are applicable to any of those in more or less degrees. And the core principles will be things like specificity of training. specificity of training is you basically perform the way you train. Okay. So the closer you can get with your training to the actual game.

specificity, then the more transfer there will be between the training and the performance. And we can go into this in a lot more detail if you wish, but this is basically a physiological process where the player learns to do new things through repetition and variation and specificity. But the key one is specificity of training. Okay. The human body has evolved to

come out of the caves and off the grasslands to learn how to do things. And the human body has 30 trillion, 30 trillion cells, Nerve cells, muscle cells, brain cells, the 30 trillion components adapting to whatever you do to it. Now I think coaches either don't realize this or forget this, all right?

the body will react specifically to what you do in training. So you want to have them run dribble through cones. Great. They're going to be very good at dribbling through cones. Okay. You want to have them do a Rondo. You do lots of Rondo's. Some people love Rondo's. Okay. I'm not a huge fan, but they'll be good at doing Rondo's. Okay. If you want them to play real type football, you do adapted small size of games or

specificity of those 30 trillion cells to whatever you do to your players in training. Highly important.

Alf Gracombe (18:58)
Okay, so this

is what we want to spend some time on here. Small-sided games, game-based approach in training. And we can kind of get at this maybe a couple different ways, because I know you've got a lot of thoughts on this, but you were doing this work, if I understand correctly, with Manchester United, just to come back to your story a little bit.

Rick Fenoglio (19:21)
Yes, yes.

I had a desire to work in the professional game. I wasn't going to be a player. I didn't have time for coaching at the time, but I wanted to make some contribution. So I knew I wanted to work for the top club in the country, Manchester United. And I just thought, if they look at my CV,

What are they going to see? Not a whole lot in football. So I did what anybody would do. I volunteered to do some conditioning and coaching at Port Vale, which is a club near my home, at Barry Football Club at Blackburn Rovers. So I was trying to build my CV for that day when somebody at Manchester United would look at it and say, let's, let's chat to this guy. So to cut a long story short,

I came home from work one day absolutely kind of fed up with people in general and students and frustrations and stuff. So I said, right, that's it. I'm going to do it. So I sat down and I wrote 100 Sports Science Ideas for the Manchester United Academy, which the Academy system was just starting. So I wrote them all out. I sent them to Les Kershaw, who was the Academy director at the time and thought,

Okay, I've done it. Let's, you know, maybe something happened, maybe not. I'm glad I did it anyway. I just dropped it in the mail. I just, mean, this is the, this is another difference between British clubs at the time and Americans professional clubs. You know, I wouldn't get 10 miles, you know, close to the Chicago Bears or wherever, you know, they just don't accept things like that. But, but at the time it was a bit more,

Alf Gracombe (20:48)
So did you just drop this in the mail? What was the, hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (21:13)
relaxed in the UK. So two weeks later, I got a phone call from Tony Whelan, who was going to eventually became a very good friend and colleague. And he said, yeah, come on over. Let's have a chat. He wanted to build a library in the club.

For the players that was our first little project so we You know looked up the most important text we thought for the for the coaches and the players and we did a small library and Then like anything once you do a good job one time. You're more likely to get asked back so the next one Is the 4v4 one where Tony said that they're they're experimenting or trying and a new games format

instead of playing 8v8 competitive games for their under nines, they were thinking about going to a 4v4 setup. And they'd already done that, but they wanted somebody to come and evaluate it. So I reluctantly said, Yeah, exactly. So I met with them, we planned out the research.

Alf Gracombe (22:18)
Let me see if I've got the time to work on that,

Rick Fenoglio (22:29)
It was fairly straightforward in terms of science, comparing number of touches and other parameters, number of shots and stuff between 4v4 and 8v8 with some of their players. And it all looked very good, the results. And I wrote a small little article, for the FA Coaches Magazine. And that's where it was published.

And, you know, I know that the information was really good, but it also had, and I have to be honest and say it had the Manchester United logo on it. So, you know, those two things really made a difference and people started to know me

Alf Gracombe (23:13)
Yeah. So this is, I mean, you're also, so as part of this work you did, there's certainly some data collection and analysis as well. Do you know, like kind of prior to that, the, maybe are these early days of kind of sporting analytics, would you say, or was there a lot of work around data happening at the club prior to that?

Rick Fenoglio (23:33)
it was, it was kind of pre pre the, the big push toward data. I must say, especially for Academy players, the first teams had analysts. Yeah, definitely. But nothing like they've got now with cameras and, and, you know, AI and stuff like that. So

Alf Gracombe (23:49)
Sure.

And

were the coaches in the academy, were they receptive to this information? Were they kind of open to rethinking some of their approaches to youth development?

Rick Fenoglio (24:01)
Well, mean, within Manchester

United, the transition had already taken place. They had already decided to do this. So the data was a bonus and literally for the four different games that they chose and the parameters that we chose to analyze, it all matched up really, really well. And so they were absolutely chuffed about it.

So then over the next year and a half, two years, I and possibly Tony Whelan from the club or other coaches, we would do coaching education sessions at the other professional clubs in the area and across the UK, just pushing small side of games and the benefits and some of the things you need to look out for and stuff like that. So that was a major turning point.

Alf Gracombe (25:00)
So small-sided games. Let's maybe peel back another layer on that a little bit. And maybe some of the history is useful. know, prior to Man United in this case, making this switch over to 4v4, you know, prior to that, where players really just playing more...

game situation, 8v8 I think you mentioned, kind of bringing the size down. When you talk about small-sized games, are we really saying there? What does that mean?

Rick Fenoglio (25:34)
Right. So,

looking into the history of it, it really did start with the precursor to futsal, football de salo in Uruguay and Brazil. And basically it became small sided because they went indoors because of the weather conditions or things like that. Kind of the next big step was when Rines Michels at...

Alf Gracombe (26:02)
legendary Dutch coach.

Rick Fenoglio (26:02)
Dutch Vision,

used a lot of 4v4 specifically in training and pushed it a lot. And then I remember doing some work with Knotts County and I looked into the history of their small side of game stuff and they were doing Dutch Vision camps at Knotts County.

you know, they were one of the first ones to bring over the Dutch, which came from the Uruguayans and the Brazilians into the UK. So it kind of had this global movement. And then when this research came out with a manual, again, with the logo, the power of the badge, you know, it kept spreading. And then there was the...

Alf Gracombe (26:38)
Hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (26:51)
change in the FA rules and small-sided formats in the States, which first happened in the UK. And so we were getting this kind of global spread of age-related appropriate size games for kids. mean, it's so much better than it used to be when 11 year olds were playing 11 v 11 on a full-size pitch and couldn't

kick the ball out of defense and you get games like 20-0 and stuff like that. So that side of things has improved, in my opinion, immensely.

Alf Gracombe (27:32)
Yeah, I mean certainly in the US now, know, the U8 start at a 4v4 and then U10 goes to 7v7, then 9v9, etc. I would still argue we're probably taking kids to 11v11 even maybe two years before they need to, but it's, we'll take the progress, take the win where we have it here in the US. So, you know, small side of games and maybe this is a very crude...

Rick Fenoglio (27:51)
Exactly.

Alf Gracombe (27:59)
comparison, just to maybe highlight a little bit, you mentioned earlier, like a drill, right? You're dribbling through stationary cones, that kind of training for young players versus these game-based approach, small-sided games.

Rick Fenoglio (28:16)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (28:18)
Talk about like what's happening neurologically or motor skill wise when players are engaged in and maybe these are two extremes, but maybe they're useful for how to frame it. But what's different?

Rick Fenoglio (28:29)
Yeah,

the two, those two approaches, right? A cone based dribbling exercise versus a small sided game are relying on two different theories about motor neuron activation. Basically, the first one is what you might call an information processing system. So you believe that the body through neurological pathways lays down a track.

to do the movement. And if you repeat it, you repeat it, it strengthens that. Not only the neurological stuff, but the muscles doing the action. So you need repetition, repetition, repetition. That's one belief system. The other belief system is that the human neuromuscular network is a highly complex system. And we look at

You know, can see scans of brain cells and stuff like that. it's an entire network. Okay. So it's very, very complex and complexity theory, which is another whole area would say that if you put a player in a situation that's complex and they have a complex neurobiological system adapting to it, eventually they will figure out the

solutions themselves. All right, so two very, very different theories about how children learn. So one information processing and the other one is, you know, complexity, which complexity theory then led into constraints led approaches, which we can talk about as well. But that's basically what it is

the child with 30 trillion cells will adapt to the situation and the environment and problem solving that you put them in. Okay, given time and giving enough constraints is what we'll call them. Does that make sense?

Alf Gracombe (30:37)
It does.

you know, I, in the work I do here with our local grassroots club and I do some teaching of our coaches But what I have, the language I've started to use around some of this is

how we change the conditions in the game to encourage or require or ask the players to solve different types of problems. And I think this is what you're getting at with the constraints-based approach as well. You drop cones out, the problem is very clearly defined. There's very little complexity to what you're asking the player to do. But putting them in an environment that's maybe a little chaotic or has conditions that...

provide a set of problems that they have to figure out how to solve. Is that what you see happening with Small Side of Game 2?

Rick Fenoglio (31:28)
That's absolutely in a nutshell, but I would

say that specificity here is the most important thing. Okay, which of those two is more specific to the game? Thus, the correct nerves, the correct muscles, the decision making, the learning will be higher in my opinion, you know, from that environmentally based approach. Give them, create the environment and let them solve the problems.

Alf Gracombe (31:34)
What do you mean by that?

Rick Fenoglio (31:58)
two very, very different approaches.

Alf Gracombe (32:01)
Yeah. And so can you talk about this a little bit with different age groups as well? Because, you know, as players get older, they move to the full sized 11v11 game. Are we still kind of saying, you know, the larger game is still really made up of smaller games and smaller sets of problems that you have to solve. And so you just have to identify what type of problem am I trying to solve here? And then

Rick Fenoglio (32:27)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (32:27)
you know, solve it within this larger game, but you're really playing a smaller game on the 11 v 11 field as an example.

Rick Fenoglio (32:33)
Yeah,

okay. First, I need to make a differentiation between training on your own and there is probably there is no option except to do repetition of individual drills. And I am not saying at all that there won't won't be any transfer. Okay, that there won't be any transfer from single repetition exercises. There will be, know, historically, it shows absolutely. But

take away that decision making of the context of the real game, then you've got to go through the whole process of taking that skill and putting it into the game.

absolutely brand new players, you put them in a small-sided game and they have no... they can't really play. You know, they don't have even the basic skills. So I'm not saying small-sided games solve everything. You know, they have to be able to engage. All right? But once they can engage, they need to have a context of the real game in order to do that. So once they've got the basic skills,

you know, try putting him into a game again. And there's, there's a million different types of games you can have. And as long as it's fun, engaging, and they're actively playing something that looks like the real game, then that's pretty much, you know, all the coach can ask for. And we, we talk about letting the game be the teacher. It's not as simple as that, but you know,

This is, this is what I don't think we get enough of. don't think, I don't think kids get enough of playing real soccer at, at team training. So if, you know, if they're at your practice and it's the whole team, got to think about reduction. Okay. Reductionism is when you take something and break it down into little bits. And then you got to put it all back together again. Why not just start with, let that small side of game be your

Alf Gracombe (34:17)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (34:36)
starting point, your canvas, do all the other stuff you need to do within that particular canvas or game, and then you're pulling in the context of real football. Kids love it. They like to play. They think they're playing, but it's really smart coaching, really smart coaching.

Alf Gracombe (34:56)
Do you recommend having kids like to compete naturally? think you get these games going and I think you'll see kids we'll say, hey, we're not keeping score, we're just playing, but kids always, they like keeping score, right?

Rick Fenoglio (35:10)
keep score always.

Alf Gracombe (35:12)
And so how do you think about the idea of kind of scoring because a small-sided game, doesn't have to necessarily be here's a goal at one end, here's a goal at another end, you're going to try and score a goal, right? You can have a million different ways to get points in a small-sided game. So as a coach, how do you think about kind of score keeping and just incorporating that into these games?

Rick Fenoglio (35:20)
No.

Yeah, I don't

discount it. Positive reinforcement. Kids love it. I mean, there's all that argument about, know, gets a trophy for showing up for practice, you know, that type of thing. But yeah, it's basic conditioning, you know, learning and conditioning and it all helps. So the other thing I've learned in all this is that you make a statement on social media, whatever, and everybody thinks that's the only

Alf Gracombe (35:48)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (36:02)
thing that you're promoting. Everything works, but it's just knowing the context and valuing that gameplay, what that can do, and being creative with it. I'm not here to say only play small-sided games. I'm here to say small-sided games are very adaptable. You can make them fun. You can make them fitness-oriented. You can make them mentally-oriented.

gives you a complete and utter canvas. And I just think it keeps that context that is specific, specificity closer to that endpoint that we all want, know, the transferability of great players and great skills and being able to adapt and, you know, play the game as it is. That's it. That's the thing about this game, man. It's just it's in your face and it's in the moment and

Alf Gracombe (36:52)
You are.

Rick Fenoglio (37:01)
trying to create players that can make decisions and the right decisions in the moment. It's incredibly difficult to do, but it's, you know, so yeah.

Alf Gracombe (37:09)
Yeah.

That's so, you you, you alluded a moment ago to social media and then just, I think the, the, the media ecosystem such as it is if I'm a new coach or, know, even someone who's been coaching for a while now, the youth game. Okay. I'm not talking about the professional level.

I do often find that with a lot of things, whether it's politics or sport or anything, it's like, okay, which side do you come down on? Right? And so in this case, it's like, are you a small sided games guy?

Rick Fenoglio (37:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Alf Gracombe (37:43)
Or are you, you know, yeah, and I had Mike Smith, we mentioned earlier, and he's been working for many years now with Coerver Coaching Coerver comes from a bit more of a tradition of the ball mastery and kids getting a lot of time. Repetition is certainly part of that. But even he wouldn't.

Rick Fenoglio (37:45)
drill based.

Alf Gracombe (38:05)
not that I was trying get him to take the bait, but take the bait on, you know, talk about this Coerver approach versus the small sided games. And he said something very similar to what you just said, which was, you know, it's not an either or thing. There's, there's of course, you know, value. Kids do need to learn these ball mastery skills. They can learn, they can learn them in small sided game context. But they're, you know, we're not just going to throw that out the window just now because we're talking about the benefits of small sided games. It's just bringing a different

thing to the training.

Rick Fenoglio (38:35)
Absolutely. It's

a real problem with social media that you don't have enough space or text characters to really discuss things and the benefits of either approach.

Alf Gracombe (38:49)
Yeah. Well, I appreciate kind of getting to do a little bit of a deep dive on this and, with you because it is, it is fascinating. And this is a lot of work that I've done as a coach. very much also just believe in and love working with small side of games and, and as a coach, I'd love to kind of get some more of your thoughts just on how you think about this as a coach, right. And, and.

Rick Fenoglio (39:15)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (39:15)
You know, I talk a lot about, I just love the idea of just kind of coaches being observers, right? Like really paying attention to what's happening and why you're watching these kids play a small-sided game. But how do you think about making adjustments? You've got your activities set up and the kids are playing the game, but you know, what types of things might you be looking for? And then what types of adjustments might you look to make?

Rick Fenoglio (39:36)
Okay.

Yeah, first a comment on the other one. Evaluating players qualitatively rather than quantitatively is the only thing you can do if you're using a small-sided game basic approach. Okay, you have to watch them or you will miss their development and take notes if you need to while they're playing and stuff like that.

There's really much no way to quantify. this is another issue with the game. Quantification of football is very, very misleading in some cases. you know, numerical stats on how players do during a game. They're great, okay? But use them and don't let them use you. Okay? They are one part of the puzzle. The other parts are impact, you know.

Does a player make a real impact defensively or offensively?

once once players get to a point where they're starting to get into positions or being placed in positions and I would say that some coaches not all try to do this too early and try to pigeonhole and create tactical positioning far too early. You know, before the age of 14, generally my opinion

let them have lots of different experiences in different positions, et cetera. Once they get...

Alf Gracombe (41:08)
I think a lot

of coaches, sorry to interrupt, I think a lot of coaches would be surprised to hear you say that. I'm not saying you're wrong at all because I actually very much agree with you, but I think a lot of coaches start to think positionally. Again, this is what I've seen just in grassroots North American soccer here. And kids also start to put themselves into positions.

Rick Fenoglio (41:13)
Really? Okay.

No, no,

Yeah.

Sure. I

mean, there's two things I would say about that. Once teams, let's take a typical eight, under eights or under nines, under tens team, and it's supposed to be development. Supposed to be. But you're in a league, okay? And if you're in a league, you need to win games. And I will be the first one to say, if you take the winning side out of it, it ain't football. It's not soccer. Okay?

Soccer is a sport and you play a sport to win but Smart coaches will use the goal of winning to develop players instead of the other way around All right. That's that's quite important. I think for any football Yeah smart. Well Caring and smart coaches will use the goal of winning To improve players and develop them rather than develop players to win Okay

Alf Gracombe (42:13)
So say that again.

Mm-hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (42:29)
what the parents think and what others think, that's a different issue. But I mean, that's a philosophy, but I think it's an important one that, you know, the leagues, it's very, very difficult. It's very difficult to balance trying to win games, win the league, blah, blah, and develop individuals and team players at the same time. Once kids get older, I'm talking...

maybe 12, 13 or whatever, and positions become more important. And one of the reasons they're more important is because their bodies are maturing and getting into adulthood and they're able to handle the competitiveness and the physical forces in the game. Then, more individual type work is needed and wanted. But again,

what lot of the professional teams are doing now is they're having small sided, they're having positional specific small sided games in different areas of the field. if I'm a, if I'm a right back and I need to be able to, to, you know, long past short past, whatever they'll devise specific games for those players in those positions. And again, it's just to give them more experiences of the things that they will encounter on game day. So

That's a good suggestion, I think, for coaches is think about the experience that they go through in a game. Try to replicate that as much as you can specificity in training and be creative with it. And to me, that's about probably as far as you can get with ensuring you're building an environment for learning. That's about as much as you

Alf Gracombe (44:24)
So you've been in the youth game for what 30 plus years at this point. So you've seen things come and go. You mentioned that, you even just with Man United changing their approach to Academy development, small side of games, et cetera. What do you see, you know, how, how, do you see youth coaching evolving?

Rick Fenoglio (44:29)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (44:50)
you can point to different parts of the world. I I live in Boston, you live in the UK, you work there. But what are some of the trends that you're seeing with youth coaching and youth development in the game?

Rick Fenoglio (45:00)
I

think we're getting to a point where there's real conflict between the traditionalists, if you will, and the games-based people. There seemed to have been, after the Man United research and all that stuff, there seemed to have been kind of a 10-year dip, and we kind of went back to pretty poor playing environments, and I think that's because...

The growth of the TV growth and the online growth of the Premier League around the world and that what people see as soccer is the adult professional game. So that becomes what it is in their heads. Same with the fans, same with the parents, etc. But I would argue and many others will argue that

Alf Gracombe (45:35)
Mm.

Rick Fenoglio (45:58)
youth soccer is fundamentally fundamentally different from adult professional soccer and you cannot take that model and try to take things from it and apply it to the youth game and expect to get the same results. I mean again we talk about development versus winning youth any team under the age of 15 16 is developmental you know it has to be basically because they're not they're not

matured adults yet And the rules are different, the approach is different, the environment is different, and you know, it's a general plea and I've been, I've been shouting this for 20 years, you know, the environments in which training and games take place needs to change. Still, you know, there's a lot of great work and I think we're getting to a point where the game-based

children's rights, people are having more of a voice. But there's still resistance. And, you know, I've made my reputation, I guess, out of promoting small sided game based learning, but also just keep it, it's got to be fun. How many are going to be termed professional, you know? 0.01%. You know, so it just, yeah.

Alf Gracombe (47:19)
Right. A small percentage of a small percentage. Right.

So I'm a, I'm a new coach pretending here and, yeah, I agree. I love the small side of games. I've, know, I've been on YouTube. I've, I've learned a lot about how I can set up my training environment and get the kids playing. but I think what you started to touch on a little bit with your last comment, you know, this

At the end of the day, this is the players game. This is the kids game. But you're an adult and you're a coach and you're in this environment. And again, I'm thinking very much kind of the grassroots, you know, town programs, but also I'm sure club academies, this would would also be relevant, but.

Rick Fenoglio (48:01)
Yeah.

Alf Gracombe (48:09)
How do I think about my role as a coach in this environment? How much am I leaning in? How much am I kind of talking in the kids' ears as they're playing? How do I think about what I'm actually doing out there on the pitch with these kids?

Rick Fenoglio (48:16)
Yeah.

Well, yeah, before I come on on that one, I'll probably lose my train of thought again. There is, you know, we say the whenever you say it's the kids game. I agree, obviously, but I can hear adults in the background. No, it's not. It's not just their game. We, you know, we get enjoyment out of it as well. It is for us. And I would absolutely agree. Okay. It's not just the kids game because everybody

lots of other people have invested interest in it and they want their kids to do well and they love their sons or daughters. I understand that as a parent. There you go, I've lost my train of thought. What was the second bit?

Alf Gracombe (49:07)
Well,

how do you, so you're a parent, you're out there, you're either maybe a parent on the sideline or you're a parent coach and your son or daughter is playing on this team and you're running these training sessions. But how do you think about your role? It does mean something to you, of course, but how do you kind of get yourself right, fitted into that?

Rick Fenoglio (49:22)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I think starting with a game-based canvas, that's your starting point around which you build most everything, because you're going to include context in that. Okay, that's the starting point. Now coaching from this type of approach is different because you literally do have to sometimes rein yourself back and just let it happen. It's messy, right? Not Lionel Messi, but it's messy. And...

Alf Gracombe (49:39)
Hmm.

And you need to be comfortable

with that, right?

Rick Fenoglio (49:57)
Yeah, kids are

very comfortable with that. And we need to maybe ask them, you know, there's a lot about children's rights and giving them some ownership. And if you ever want to motivate your kids, just ask them what they want to do and let them do it. You know, that will motivate them to have ownership of what happens to them in the soccer field. But coaching this way is a little bit different because, you know, you have to trust the game.

You have to trust the 30 trillion cells in your kids' physiology to adapt to these situations. And it means sometimes pulling back. Different personalities, different coaches, know, some find that really difficult. And because you're not actively manipulating, changing things, adapting, talking, shouting sometimes, whatever, people, parents and other onlookers,

might think that you're not doing a great job, you know, because you're not actively, you know, broad, you know, whatever. so that takes some getting used to it and you have to tell the parents what this approach is about and what it's going to look like and why you're doing it. And that's, that's to give game base 30 trillion cell learning to all the kids, you know? but yeah, it's, it's, it's not easy. It looks easy. Set the game up and let them play.

Alf Gracombe (50:59)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (51:26)
But in fact, it's not, you know.

Alf Gracombe (51:27)
It sounds easy, yeah, right?

Well, you mentioned also how you, I've talked about this a little bit in some of what I've written, communicating to the parents what you're doing and why can go a long way. Because some of this might not look like coaching, this guy's not out there actively coaching my child, not actively trying to make my child a better player.

And if they don't understand how you're approaching it, how you're thinking about it, how you're bringing some of these approaches to coaching to the game, they might be upset with that. And I think that's more of the soft skills around coaching, but communication with parents, particularly at these younger ages, I think is critically important.

Rick Fenoglio (52:12)
Yeah, I absolutely agree that at the beginning of each season or beginning of early on, they need to be told. And there is research to back up the approach, not only from soccer, but from rugby union, all different sports of game-based learning. It's probably bigger in Australia and New Zealand. Different sports use it. There's plenty of research. And if anybody really wants

some references I can provide those.

Alf Gracombe (52:45)
Well,

yeah, and I like to kind of at the end of these conversations, and this has been just so great, Rick, I really appreciate everything you've shared today. But yeah, I'd love to hear if you've got some specific resources that you use, either things you return to over time or some new things that are kind of in your ears or that you're thinking about resources for coaches. And I'll add these into the show notes, of course, as well.

Rick Fenoglio (53:05)
Okay.

Okay,

I I tend to read scientific study papers and if anybody's on LinkedIn, I have a, I started an in-play coaching group and if I see an interesting paper about or study about all this stuff, I will post it on there. So we've got about 350 members so far, so that's going well. All right. Okay.

Alf Gracombe (53:33)
Yeah, I'm a member. love it. I'll put that in the show notes for sure. There's some really good content

that comes through that.

Rick Fenoglio (53:39)
Yeah, anybody who wants

to join, it's free, know, more than welcome. It's a sharing site. It's not a, you know, it's not a selling site, but I have to say, apart from that, at the moment I talk to people and I do read, you know, social media, see what other people are saying, look at some of the good coaches, depending on which age they're coaching and see how they're doing it, you know, and

Yeah, we're getting a good little stronger worldwide community. I need to put another plug in here for the Radical Football Conference

So every summer, this will be the second year we have organized the Radical Football Conference, which is going to become or is becoming a focal point for people who think like this. Game-based learning, constraints-led approaches, new ways of thinking. We had a great conference last year and everyone's invited to Oradea, Romania. Fantastic place.

Alf Gracombe (54:46)
All right.

If you needed a reason to go to Romania, there's one right there.

Rick Fenoglio (54:50)
Basically, leave your ego at the door. Let's talk about making the experience of youth football the best it can be, really, for the kids. Good.

Alf Gracombe (55:00)
Excellent.

So one last thing, and I probably should have asked you about this earlier. You're a scout as well for, City Football Group, Manchester City. and I just am personally kind of curious, what does it mean to be a scout, you know, in the modern game for one of these big clubs? Like, what are you, what are you doing? And then, you know, as a scout and then.

Rick Fenoglio (55:09)
Hmm.

Hahaha.

Alf Gracombe (55:27)
you know, how does that, how do you think about development in the context of scouting as well? Or how do you, you how does that all fit together for you?

Rick Fenoglio (55:34)
Okay. So yes,

I'm a scout for City Football Group of which Manchester City is the home club, but the City Football Group has 13 clubs worldwide. So my job as a scout is to, it's all, it's mainly video, not, not the whole of the video, but I'll get five players from could be anywhere from Uruguay to Peru to.

Australia to America and I need to watch that video of that player and make a report and if those above me are interested they will again review it and then it goes to the next level and then to the next level and then you know there's lots of levels before the club will make any type of offer to the player but I'm I scout with an

Alf Gracombe (56:27)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (56:30)
a mind for all the City Football Group clubs, which are of various qualities, levels. Well, I used to do youth scouting more, mainly in Scandinavia, but at the moment now it's only senior players. And it's given me good idea of what elite means. And I know we use that term, like a throwaway term, but

Alf Gracombe (56:38)
What ages are these kids that you're looking at film of?

Okay. And you talked about

Rick Fenoglio (57:01)
you know, what is a really good footballer? What's a really good attacking midfielder, left back, center forward, whatever. So it's really helped me hone my skills, analyzing the game and positions, senses and things like that. And the main thing we look for is impact. You know, it doesn't really matter how a player does something as long as it's successful, really.

Alf Gracombe (57:25)
Hmm.

Rick Fenoglio (57:31)
We're not looking for the perfect technique, we're looking for impact offensively or defensively. And that's another thing for kids to take away is that you've got to show your impact. If you want to get scouts from universities or clubs to look at you, it's all about the impact you make in the game.

Alf Gracombe (57:54)
Mm-hmm.

And your review of these players back to something you talked about before this is You tell me if I'm right or wrong here This is you're doing qualitative review of these players, right? And in terms of what you report up through the the chain of command in the club What does that look like? Are you kind of writing out along certain metrics giving them scores? Are you you writing a you know paragraph or two about each player? What is that? How do you qualitatively assess them and then report on that?

Rick Fenoglio (57:59)
Yeah.

I mean,

you're absolutely right. is qualitative assessment from my end. If they like a player, we have the data analytics that will spew out all the data on this player in a second. So what they look for from us is real life opinions, basically.

Alf Gracombe (58:40)
Hmm.

So what's example

of an opinion you'll give on a player?

Rick Fenoglio (58:50)
Yeah, so

I'll talk about the impact of the player offensively, impact of the player defensively, physical qualities. Now from my background in physiology, it's a major thing. The framework of the limb length, the muscularity, you know, it really does mean a lot when you're trying to analyze how a player is doing. Because, you know, typical example, Lionel Messi.

He's short, he's got a low center of gravity. He can turn within, you know, one V ones like nobody else, you know, and all that. So that's, that's a part of what I do as just cause of my background, I guess. we look at on-pitch behavior. So if, are they aggressive? Are they not? do they duck out of, challenges? Are they petulant? You know, are they look at me? Do they.

roll around five times when they get fouled. All of that, you know, that's, and I think young players forget that. If you're being scouted, you're scouted from the minute you enter the stadium, you know, not even under the field or the pitch. We're looking at body language, communication skills, maturity, how can they handle pressure, all of it really.

Alf Gracombe (1:00:00)
Yeah, you're looking at body language, looking at, yeah.

Yeah,

fascinating. Well, for all the young listeners out there who are looking to try to get into the pro game, think this is a great perspective to have, for sure.

Well, Rick, I can't thank you enough for being here on the show and sharing just your experience and your knowledge, which, again is just fascinating. Anything, you know, again, a lot of listeners near not exclusively, but some of them are certainly, you know, again, these kind of, I keep returning to these grassroots coaches. They're maybe new into the game and they're

Rick Fenoglio (1:00:36)
My pleasure.

Alf Gracombe (1:00:47)
kind of beginning their coaching journey. Just any sort of last thoughts on advice for these newer coaches and working in the youth game.

Rick Fenoglio (1:00:58)
Well, first thing to say is hats off everybody. If you've jumped in, you probably have an idea already about what it can be and probably what some of it you don't want it to be and stuff like that. So it is very, very difficult and my total respect to anybody who takes a youth team in this environment that we have in youth soccer and trying to do their best. I really think it's a

Alf Gracombe (1:01:01)
Yes.

Rick Fenoglio (1:01:28)
wonderful thing that you're giving basically. I just take the pressure off yourself. Have fun yourself. Without fun, what's the point of living? Enjoyment, know, and same for the kids and try to control things as best you can but also give them the freedom to make their own decisions. Ask them what they want to do. Ask them their opinions. Ask them what they think are their strengths and weaknesses.

Alf Gracombe (1:01:42)
That's right.

Rick Fenoglio (1:01:58)
ask them because they'll then buy in and have some more ownership. And yeah, hats off, have fun. Well done already.

Alf Gracombe (1:02:10)
Perfect. love it. I, know, whenever end of the season, beginning of the season, when we talk to our coaches here, that's always the first thing I say is just thank you for, for showing up and then doing this. Cause cause just showing up is, is really half of the, half the battle. but again, Rick, exactly. Yeah. They may not say it directly, but,

Rick Fenoglio (1:02:22)
Absolutely.

The kids thank you, even if they don't thank you, you know? They may not.

Alf Gracombe (1:02:34)
but they're absolutely grateful that you're out there because without these volunteer coaches, just, don't have youth soccer. It's plain and simple. So Rick, thank you so much. This has been great. I appreciate your time and sharing what you shared. All right. Thank you very much. All right. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks Rick. Bye bye.

Rick Fenoglio (1:02:37)
Good.

Thank you. Okay, all the best everybody. Good luck. All right, take care. Bye bye.

Alf Gracombe (1:02:57)
Okay, wow, just an excellent conversation there with Rick Fenoglio. A few key takeaways. Rick talked about his background in sports science and the work he's done throughout his career in bringing research into youth development on the pitch and not just in football, but other sports as well. He mentioned rugby, gymnastics, skiing, just to name a few. His work around and his advocacy for small-sided games continues. And the research he's done in partnership with Manchester United

stands out as critical to the evolution of the youth academies at some of the UK's biggest clubs. He spent some time discussing the physiology and the neurological dynamics in play as kids are developing skills and decision-making capabilities in sport. And he capped everything off with some great advice for coaches, both new coaches and seasoned ones, about embracing some of the messiness of coaching youth soccer and always making sure you and the kids are out there on the pitch having fun. It's gotta be fun. It's gotta be about the kids.

So again, a huge thanks to Rick for sharing his knowledge and experience in working at the highest levels of the youth game. And thanks to you all for tuning into the Coach Craft podcast. See you next time.